Tool Talk
Blacksmith and Metal Working Forum => Blacksmith and Metalworking Forum => Topic started by: wrenchcollector on July 30, 2011, 08:37:58 PM
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What should I pay?
I have found a blacksmith die holder and five taps with rectangle head like the ones discussed here http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=299.msg1716#msg1716
and also in another topic started by izenglish.
The set I found for sale was in a consignment shop and did not have a price on it. Store owner called the seller but I have not heard back from either of them. The set is a butterfield and in excellent condition. Wooded box they are in is in very poor shape. Taps must be hard too find. Any opinion on price range will help me know what I should pay.
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Here is the other topic I read about the tapered taps
http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=489.msg2848#msg2848
Good info.
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IMHO
Die stock worth around $10-20 if in pretty good shape. (watch for chipped out dies)
(also, the numbers should all match. The inserts were made to fit the die stock specifically. Should be a Model number, like No.37 or something, and then another serial number that should be matched on the inserts)
Add at least $5 for the rough box, (at least $10 for a decent original box).
You are correct. Taps got broken or seized up or ruined as much as they do today.
I would expect a fair price to be up to $5 apiece for the taps.
These sets were offered in LH threads as well. Look for an "L" marked on the inserts and look at the taps for LH threads. They are somewhat scarcer than the usual RH threads.
(RH and LH were intended for buggy or wagon axles. Think bicycle pedals.)
There is relatively limited interest in these, but the set together, even with a rough case, does add value and desirability. Die stocks alone don't bring a whole lot on eBay. Currently there is a Butterfield No.37 with a couple of chips that has been re-listed at least four times and can't get a hit at $20 plus $15 shipping.
Can you "make an offer" and negotiate from there?
Let us know if you get them cheap enough and want to re-sell them.
I might be interested.
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IMHO
...(also, the numbers should all match. The inserts were made to fit the die stock specifically. Should be a Model number, like No.37 or something, and then another serial number that should be matched on the inserts)...
Thanks leg17, I did not know this, but just to clarify should the number on the die inserts match the model number or just match the other inserts. I have a Butterfield No. 32 B already and checked it and all the die inserts are marked 21. Cannot find the 21 marked on the die stock.
Your price range is about inline with my wag of thier value so I hope its in the ballpark. If I do have to make an offer I want it to be a fair one so the seller does not become defencive and not negoitate. Hope you are right about the limited interest, it will only make the selling price lower.
Any one else with an opinion or experience buying/selling a set please chime in. The more info. I have the better.
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What should I pay?
Welcome to the site "wrenchcollector", and "leg17". I was not searching for my J.M. King die set's when I found them, so I had no idea what they were worth. I would think an entire set, with the box, in good condition, could fetch up to 100 bucks, depending on how bad you wanted it, but that is just my W.A.G.!. I do know they are very scarce around my neck of the woods, and have never ran accross a complete set. I'm currently looking for the campanion taps for mine, and have found one so far, but they are even harder to find than the die blocks for some reason. Good Luck!
Wayne
aka. Lzenglish
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I got the set! Dies are not as good as I thought but there were 6 taps instead of 5. Will post some pictures monday.
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Congratulations on obtaining the set! Are there 3 left handed, and 3 right handed taps of different sizes in your set? This seems to be how my J.M. King set was originally sold. So far I have found one LH tap for mine. I look forward to seeing the pictures of your set.
Wayne
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Way to go!
I also would love to see pictures.
I have a few odd taps but the only boxed screw plate I have is a King 41 with no taps.
By the way, looks like the Butterfield company did NOT serial number the die stock, but only the die inserts to keep them together. Most of the other companies also stamped the same serial number on the die stock itself.
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Here is pictures and info. on taps and die stock.
Its a Butterfield 60 about 2' long with die pitchs of 10,12,14,& 18.
taps are 18-1/4"
18-5/16"
14-7/16"
14-1/2"
12-5/8"
10-3/4"
I assume all taps are RH. No LH markings. Taps are unmarked except for the size. No company name.
Was supprised to see a diameter on the taps, also they are not tapered as much as I thought they would be.
The 18 and 14 dies are no good and the smallest tap has a broked end.
I ended up giving $45 for the set. Set has some problems but what are the odds of me finding another one so I bought it.
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Very Nice looking set! A quick search of the Butterfield Company indicates it was formed in 1880, and "Began" by making Buggy Axle Re-threaders.
Wayne
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They were also selling to the bicycle folks, I have seen replacement taps , dies, etc in the old wholesale catalogs with the litho images showing butterfields logo..., so consider the possability of bicycle rethreading sets when looking at these things....
Very nice set, never seen that one in it's box.....
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wrenchcollector
If you want to try them out, I strongly suggest that you watch "The Woodwright Shop", episode 3013 with well known blacksmith Peter Ross. He demonstrates the use of these threading dies. This has been mentioned here on other threads.
These types do not so much 'cut' a thread as 'swedge' a thread, like a modern forming tap. There is a technique that is somewhat different than we are used to with modern thread cutting taps and dies. And, remember that they are not made to hold up very well on steel, but rather on the somewhat easier-to-work-with wrought iron.
If you want to play with them, you might try aluminum to see how it goes. That won't be much stress on the dies, or taps for that matter.
Bicycle sets usually had finer threads. This assortment seems to be for normal shop application, especially considering no LH threads. LH taps are distinctive in appearance as the threads look like they are going the wrong way. The dies are sometimes marked with an "L".
Nice score!
Tom
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Something else.
Butterfield was right on the Canadian border.
You might notice the two towns marked on the tool.
Derbyline VT and Rock Island P.Q. (Province of Quebec).
And they began making these right at the end of that technological era, as the Wells Brothers and Wiley and Russell of Greenfield MA were making our modern style thread cutting dies and taps by then. Butterfield quickly adapted and made a very fine line of taps, dies and related items.
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wrenchcollector
If you want to try them out, I strongly suggest that you watch "The Woodwright Shop", episode 3013 with well known blacksmith Peter Ross. He demonstrates the use of these threading dies. This has been mentioned here on other threads.
These types do not so much 'cut' a thread as 'swedge' a thread, like a modern forming tap. There is a technique that is somewhat different than we are used to with modern thread cutting taps and dies. And, remember that they are not made to hold up very well on steel, but rather on the somewhat easier-to-work-with wrought iron.
If you want to play with them, you might try aluminum to see how it goes. That won't be much stress on the dies, or taps for that matter...
Nice score!
Tom
Great info. Was not sure how to get started with them, aluminum should be easier to find than wrought iron. Thanks. Also, the P. Q. had me stumped too.
I forgot lzenglishs mention of that episode of the woodwright shop.
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Found it.
here is a link to the woodwright episode 3013 http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3000/3013.html
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Thanks for that link, that was very interesting and informative.
Graeme
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We tried the 1/2 inch tap we have on mild steel, and it worked like a champ. It would have been smarter to try it on aluminum, but we didn't think of that at the time. We tried it after watching the Woodwright Shop episode made things clear. Great episode!