Tool Talk

Blacksmith and Metal Working Forum => Blacksmith and Metalworking Forum => Topic started by: Twilight Fenrir on August 04, 2016, 06:48:52 PM

Title: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 04, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Well, just got back from an 8 hour trip down to Minneapolis to pick up the newest addition to my blacksmith shop... my first power hammer, a Mayer Bro's Easy-Helve. It's a bit of an odd duck, but there's a bunch of history behind them, and I just love it to pieces... which is a good thing, because it's in pieces, haha.

So, the Mayers Bro's is the company that made the Little Giant originally. They started making these helve hammers in 1902 while they had the patents pending on the machine. Ultimately, the company got sued for patent infringement on the helve and was driven into the ground, only manufacturing 395 of these hammers. The company would rise from the ashes as The Little Giant Company, and of course become enormously popular.

It will take a little bit of work to get it up and running, but someone already got about 3/4 of the way through restoring it, I basically just have to put it together, get/make new dies, get/make new clutch blocks and invent a drive system. I've got a 1-1/2hp electric motor I was saving for my 30" bandsaw, but I'm probably going to sell that machine, and keep the motor for my helve. Will have to do something about the red paint on the motor though... >_>

This is how she looks at the moment...
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/Tool%20Pron/IMG_20160804_202158_zps6ksov2km.jpg)

And this is what a restored machine looks like:
(http://www.spaco.org/DoneR2SmSm.jpg)
(http://www.abana.org/ronreil/left.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: blackoak on August 04, 2016, 10:57:35 PM
Very nice!!
 Several years ago a local coal mine that I did contract work at shut down. It was one of the longest active mine in Indiana when it shut down. It had a what the old guy's called the blacksmith shop. There was a trip hammer in that building that was huge. I don't remember much about it, but I was told it had been there way before MSHA's rules and regulations. MSHA shut it down after an inspection for safety reasons I was told. Like I said it was huge and it did look pretty dangerous . It had to weigh several tons I would have thought. It stood a lot taller than me at 6 feet. They said when it was ran you could feel the ground shake a long ways and hear it for  miles. When the mine shut down they tore the building down and cut it up for scrap. There's no telling what it would have been worth to the right person.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on August 05, 2016, 12:56:53 AM
cool!
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Yadda on August 05, 2016, 03:32:56 AM
cool!

What he said!
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 05, 2016, 06:07:54 AM
It looks like you got a pretty good hammer!

 Looks like the parts are in good shape. How are the Babbitt bearings and the babbit  in the clutch? Does it have the wood clutch blocks or the cone type clutch?

Bill D
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 05, 2016, 07:09:15 AM
It looks like you got a pretty good hammer!

 Looks like the parts are in good shape. How are the Babbitt bearings and the babbit  in the clutch? Does it have the wood clutch blocks or the cone type clutch?

Bill D
Yep :) The only included part  I'm concerned about is where these pins were welded to the plates... Odds are, I'm going to have to grind those off and make new pins to go into there, but I'm a bit worried about what the steel under those sloppy welds might look like...

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/Tool%20Pron/IMG_20160804_202207_zpsmc3rcmgp.jpg)

The babbit bearings are great, there's plenty of babbit in them, so there's no need to repour them. Just need to shim the blocks, and it should be good to go. Someone tapped all the oil holes for grease fittings. Which I've been doing a little bit of research into, a lot of purists say grease is bad for babbit bearings, but from what I can find it appears to depend upon the RPMs at play. Grease is fine at lower RPMs, but high RPMs need to stick with oil. Research tells me this machine should spin about 325 RPM, which is comparatively low...

It has the wood block clutch type. I've been trying to find more information about this, apparently the originals were made out of maple. Has anyone seen a rough pattern out there for making new ones? Should be the same as the Little Giants. Mine are pretty worn down, and I'll need to make some before putting it into service.

My biggest concern at the moment is the dies... I have a friend who can  probably help me make some, but I was secretly hoping I could just buy a set, but all the hammer dies I see for more popular machines are $400+ o_o
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on August 05, 2016, 07:45:52 AM
 have you thought about synthetic oil ?   like Amsoil ?
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 05, 2016, 08:23:17 AM
Twighlight,

On the links, they look like they are just made from flat stock. If so,I would probably just cut new pieces and drill the correct size holes in them. I would buy some long bolts with the in threaded portion the appropriate length and either retain them with nylock nuts and cut off excess threads or get bolts with longer unthreaded shanks and cut off threads and drill holes for cotter pins.

Concerning the lubrications. There are a lot of thoughts on this. In my opinion, grease is fine on babbit IN A CLEAN ENVIROMENT. In a blacksmith shop it collects and holds grit and pieces of scale. Some will say use chainsaw bar oil because it sticks to where you put it. I feel thirty weight non detergent oil is good. It will flow into the bearings and the excess will sling off taking the grit and scale with it this cutting down on wear. It will also sling oil all over the shop unfortunately!

There is probably a fitting at the end of the shaft. This lubricates the clutch bearing. I do not put grease in there, I oil the shaft from the outside because grease tends to make the clutch run on because of its thickness pulling on the bearing.

That is my opinion for what it's worth!

Hope this helps, Bill D
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 05, 2016, 03:16:54 PM
Twighlight,

On the links, they look like they are just made from flat stock. If so,I would probably just cut new pieces and drill the correct size holes in them. I would buy some long bolts with the in threaded portion the appropriate length and either retain them with nylock nuts and cut off excess threads or get bolts with longer unthreaded shanks and cut off threads and drill holes for cotter pins.

Concerning the lubrications. There are a lot of thoughts on this. In my opinion, grease is fine on babbit IN A CLEAN ENVIROMENT. In a blacksmith shop it collects and holds grit and pieces of scale. Some will say use chainsaw bar oil because it sticks to where you put it. I feel thirty weight non detergent oil is good. It will flow into the bearings and the excess will sling off taking the grit and scale with it this cutting down on wear. It will also sling oil all over the shop unfortunately!

There is probably a fitting at the end of the shaft. This lubricates the clutch bearing. I do not put grease in there, I oil the shaft from the outside because grease tends to make the clutch run on because of its thickness pulling on the bearing.

That is my opinion for what it's worth!

Hope this helps, Bill D
Yeah, replacing that link is probably the best idea. Though, the person who did the welding seems to have replaced it once already. Actually, all the flat stock pieces appear to be brand new, which is great, no wear there. The other link is held together with some hand-forged pins with cotter pins to retain them, and I quite like the look of that...

That's an excellent point about the grease retaining grit... My first thought was, "Well, how's grit gonna get into there if I shim it properly..." but, that's exactly how it would, because there will be a space between the top and bottom bearings, and stuff will get in there. I've been using 75W "Gear Oil" for manual transmissions in my behemothic post-mount drill press, I'll probably do the same for the hammer... because I have a ton of it >_> And, it seems to work well. I'm mildly concerned about some pitting on the main shaft, I doubt it's severe enough to cause any issues, but still, it's there, and I'm easily concerned :P

Yes, the clutch definitely needs to be oiled, this I know!

I spent the better part of today fiddling with the hammer, I had to CUT the lower die out, and it took FOREVER XD A cutting torch would have made things go much more quickly, but I don't trust myself enough to risk damaging the cast iron frame in the name of expedience. It's a shame, though, I was hoping to keep the bottom die for a spare top die. But there was absolutely no way the die was going to come out any other way. The shims just deformed and made themselves even more impossible to be driven...

Also, the hammer is now blue! All the rest of the bits will stay the matte black they were painted by the previous restorer, I think it will look really sharp.

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/Tool%20Pron/IMG_20160805_143507_zpsitqgxxgw.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/Tool%20Pron/IMG_20160805_160719_zpsnqdcpfwi.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Nolatoolguy on August 05, 2016, 04:58:33 PM
Looks like a very good start, with many future pieces to be made on it.

I to would be concerned with the steel under those welds an pins. I would at least grind out the old bubble gum welds an make sure it gets properly done. at that point thoe it may be easier just to replace the whole piece. With the pressure from the spring an constant motion hammer I wouldn't trust it.

It's a relatively easy piece to make, if you have the right tools.

It's a great piece thoe. Please keep us updated :)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Nolatoolguy on August 05, 2016, 05:06:22 PM
As far as getting the old dies out a torch would be risky unless you pre and post heat. Even then it's still old cast. Lots of times cast iron is a tricky metal to weld/cut. Heat in affected area can cause it to crack or weaken.

It can be done but you have to be careful. I can do it but it still scares me after many times I messed stuff up.

Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 05, 2016, 05:42:58 PM
I'm not sure but I would guess that the clutch blocks would be the same as a twenty five pound little giant. You might give them a call at little giant in Nebraska. They should know. If you have your serial number off the machine, they can tell you who it was shipped to from the factory and when it was shipped. I always found that interesting! I think the blocks are about forty bucks for a twenty five pound hammer. If the old blocks can be shimmed out even if the mounting holes have to be re drilled, I would keep the old ones because they are oil soaked and humidity does not affect them. It takes quite a while for new blocks to get enough oil in them so the humidity doesn't change the clutch operation.

Bill D
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on August 05, 2016, 05:57:31 PM
The hardest thing i had to do was cut the upper die out of the die holder, a air arc might have helped.
For some reason the upper die was welded better than the lower? not a good pic it's hardly noticeable
50# Mayer Bros. Sid Sudemeier is the GUY!   Somewhere there is or was a nice Easy rebuild in pics.
You probably know this page well http://www.littlegianthammer.com/
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 05, 2016, 06:08:20 PM
Looks like a very good start, with many future pieces to be made on it.

I to would be concerned with the steel under those welds an pins. I would at least grind out the old bubble gum welds an make sure it gets properly done. at that point thoe it may be easier just to replace the whole piece. With the pressure from the spring an constant motion hammer I wouldn't trust it.

It's a relatively easy piece to make, if you have the right tools.

It's a great piece thoe. Please keep us updated :)

In all sincerity, totally not being sardonic... how do you even get welds that ugly? I'm a pretty terrible arc welder, and I've never seen anything look like that come out the end of my stick. What causes.... THAT?

As far as getting the old dies out a torch would be risky unless you pre and post heat. Even then it's still old cast. Lots of times cast iron is a tricky metal to weld/cut. Heat in affected area can cause it to crack or weaken.

It can be done but you have to be careful. I can do it but it still scares me after many times I messed stuff up.
Well, I wouldn't have been cutting the cast, I would have been cutting the die, but that's exactly my concern. I know cast tends to crack if it gets hot, and cools too quickly, so I wasn't going to try to heat it and beat it either. A cutting wheel in my angle grinder worked, it just took a looong time with that hard, hard steel. Even when I cut 3/4 of the way through the shim, the shim STILL wouldn't budge... just awful.

I'm not sure but I would guess that the clutch blocks would be the same as a twenty five pound little giant. You might give them a call at little giant in Nebraska. They should know. If you have your serial number off the machine, they can tell you who it was shipped to from the factory and when it was shipped. I always found that interesting! I think the blocks are about forty bucks for a twenty five pound hammer. If the old blocks can be shimmed out even if the mounting holes have to be re drilled, I would keep the old ones because they are oil soaked and humidity does not affect them. It takes quite a while for new blocks to get enough oil in them so the humidity doesn't change the clutch operation.

Bill D
I didn't even think about shimming out the blocks! That's brilliant! :D I can just slip some 1/4" or... whatever it looks like it needs stock behind the blocks, move the holes, and call it good! Thank you Lando Calrisian! (Who was played by Billy D. Williams :P) Also, yes, it does use the same clutch blocks as the 25lb Little Giant, as well as several other parts. I wasn't aware new blocks could be purchased, $40 for some finished blocks is very reasonable, so maybe I'll order up a pair to keep on hand for when these ones are completely gone.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 05, 2016, 06:42:50 PM
Ferrier,

I would not be concerned about wearing out the clutch blocks, on my hammers that have blocks have not worn noticeably in quite a few years and once I got them adjusted the first time, the only one I have adjusted has been the one I put new blocks in and I finally decided it was changing with the humidity. I used a vacuum pump hooked to a jar with the blocks and an oil/diesel mixture in it and cycled between vacuum and atmospheric pressure until they quit bubbling(similar to stabilizing wood for knife handles but with oil). This seems to have evened out the clutch. You mentioned being concerned about pitts in the shaft. Just think about them as being oil retention spots!!! These machines were made with very liberal tolerances and most have been butchered pretty bad over the years! Look in the blacksmith section here on tool talk and look for the 25pound rebuild ( http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=362.0 ) to see some more of the "bubblegum" welds!

Bill D
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 05, 2016, 06:45:14 PM
Also, please forgive my typing, I'm using my thumb on my smartphone and it sometimes decides it doesn't like what I typed!!!
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 06, 2016, 11:35:27 AM
Also, please forgive my typing, I'm using my thumb on my smartphone and it sometimes decides it doesn't like what I typed!!!
Haha, I think we all know what that's like...

So! todays project got out a little rocky, and I'm not exactly sure what to do...

The spider wheel doesn't appear to have any babbit in it at all, looks like it's just a steel on steel interface. The shaft where the spider wheel rides is worn down where the wheel rides (no surprise there for steel on steel) but even at the worst spot, there's only a 1/32 difference in radius. Out on the un-worn shaft, there's 1/64. Can babbit be poured that thin? Do I need to? o.o I've never really dealt with machining on any kind of accurate capacity...

I've decided I'm going to use a deck of cards as shim stock for the main shaft bearings. They're almost exactly the correct size and shape, and they'll be easy to cut and drill while still packaged. (I think) They're thin, and easy to add/remove as wear necessitates.

And, I picked up a piece of 1/4" poplar to slip behind the wood clutch blocks.

I e-mailed the people who restored the green helve pictured above and asked them about the dies, and they provided me with copies of the original mechanical drawings! How awesome is that?!? I'll run them by my local machine shop, and see if they might be willing to do a run of one or two of them for me.

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160806_125015_zps7z5pucte.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160806_125104_zpsgwemymq2.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160806_125542_zpskxwvjwun.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160806_130350_zps2ct8dg6w.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/LOWERDIE_zpsgenwmvec.gif)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/UPPERDIE_zpsoxzdxnny.gif)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 06, 2016, 03:16:36 PM
Eh, I just went with it XD The hammer has clearly been operating with the clutch that way forever, so I just cleaned it up as best I could, and oiled the heck out of it.

Turns out the clutch blocks are just fine, had to slim down those little steel plates that someone fabricated to keep the block in place though. It still sticks every now and then, so I'll keep feeding it oil until it stops.

Got all the main shaft bearings to within one card thickness of as tight as it can be without interfering with movement. Nothing super exciting there...

Tomorrow, (or possibly after dinner) I start looking at shimming out the hammer pivot plates...

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160806_170019_zpsltwxfor4.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 06, 2016, 03:47:07 PM
I haven't seen a little giant that ran steel on steel but, I don't doubt it at all!!! I believe if I was in your situation, I would do the same thing! If the clutch is "grabby" and engages all at once then I would work on the clearance! I'm anxious for you to get that thing going! I'm sure a machine shop can make the dies and keys but I'm not sure if it will save much money. But it can't hurt to check! I like your aggressiveness in getting it put together.

I really like your idea of using playing cards for shims!!

Best of luck Bill D.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 06, 2016, 07:20:08 PM
I haven't seen a little giant that ran steel on steel but, I don't doubt it at all!!! I believe if I was in your situation, I would do the same thing! If the clutch is "grabby" and engages all at once then I would work on the clearance! I'm anxious for you to get that thing going! I'm sure a machine shop can make the dies and keys but I'm not sure if it will save much money. But it can't hurt to check! I like your aggressiveness in getting it put together.

I really like your idea of using playing cards for shims!!

Best of luck Bill D.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong? I don't see any seams, or transitions though... It DOES seem odd that this would be different. Maybe I'll try to find a little giant spider wheel in the future...

Thanks for the input on the grabbiness! Blah, now I'll have to take it all apart again :P But, the thought just occurred to me, when I get around to hooking a motor up to it, I'll have to take it all apart to get the belt on, unless I wrangle up some flat belt with lacing... which I might do...

Well, if they throw out a $400 quote, I'll go talk to the members of my metalsmith guild, there are a couple of machinists there, I just don't like asking for favors...

Maybe tomorrow, maybe Monday, I'm gonna go get 25 feet of treated 4x4 lumber to build a bed for it. I'm 6'6" tall, and the anvil height is just a few inches too low for me. This will also give me something to mount the motor to without having to drill holes in the frame. I'm also pondering ways to anchor some large eyes onto the bed, so I can drop chains down to the 4 corners and pick it and the machine up to move it for serving... Gonna hafta put LOTS of all-thread through it to make it strong enough for THAT.

It makes me feel a lot better having someone who did such amazing work on that little giant offering tips and feedback. I really appreciate you following along on this with me, thank you.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 06, 2016, 08:30:30 PM
Yeah, Little Giant made their machines awful low! I have all of mine setting on the floor but I always think about raising them up to be more user friendly. One thing to watch is that sometimes putting the machine up on four by fours causes the machine to wobble. I always figured that any energy used wobbling was energy the machine did not put into hammering the metal! On your machine, all the movement will be down low and in line with the long axis of the machine so I don't think it will be much of a problem! I don't know how much I know but I don't mind sharing what I do know!!

Hope this helps, Bill D
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 06, 2016, 08:52:50 PM
If you already have the clutch together, I wouldn't pull it apart unless it is grabby when you go to using it. I have had to lift the shaft up on machines before because I forgot to put the belt on! It sounds like you have it all planned out pretty good!
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 07, 2016, 12:29:04 PM
Yeah, Little Giant made their machines awful low! I have all of mine setting on the floor but I always think about raising them up to be more user friendly. One thing to watch is that sometimes putting the machine up on four by fours causes the machine to wobble. I always figured that any energy used wobbling was energy the machine did not put into hammering the metal! On your machine, all the movement will be down low and in line with the long axis of the machine so I don't think it will be much of a problem! I don't know how much I know but I don't mind sharing what I do know!!

Hope this helps, Bill D
Well, I was planning to build a bed of five 4x4x60's, with 1/2" all-thread running through them all to bind them together every foot. Then bolt the machine down to the bed. I can't imagine how this might cause wobbling, especially with the low center of gravity on this machine, but I'll keep an eye out for it!

Well, I shimmed out the hammer plates today, I'm treating this machine as sort of a time capsule :P The plates angled inwards ever so slightly towards the front, so the shaft wouldn't fit between them. I just made a little spacer out of 1/2" iron pipe and slipped it in there with a bolt through it, seems to do the trick. Everyone thought i was nuts when I grabbed the jars, and jars of old bolts out of my grandfather's basement when we were clearing out the house, but because of that I'm pretty well stocked for this machine! :D

I took appart the pitman arm assembly, cleaning out all the pivot points, and ground off that bubblegum. The steel underneath it looks just fine, so I'm not going to fiddle with it. I think I AM going to just replace all of these pivots with some grade 8 bolts. Yeah, it will clash with the rest of the machine, but unlike most of the other bolts, these ones are going to take a beating.

The only problem I'm milling over in my head, is the top pivot where both pitman arms come together... The original part appeared to have a central shoulder, with threads on both sides rather than being a bolt, and this central area was larger than the outside edges, presumably so the shoulders would hold the plates apart, but there's a sleeve that goes outside of THAT that is the exact same length as the shoulders, meaning that the sleeve would keep the parts spaced as well...

So, I've got a few options, I can make a new part like the original. I've got some 7/8" round stock, I can just carefully grind it into shape and thread both ends. I can get a grade 8 bolt the size of the center piece, and have to go buy a $20 drill bit so I can make the holes in the side plates big enough to accept it. Or I can find a grade 8 bolt the size of the threaded ends, and find/make a bushing... I think I like the last idea best, but I haven't decided just yet...

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160807_120604_zpswirb8y6m.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160807_132702_zpsgsf4ueoc.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160807_132651_zpsfditrfkp.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 07, 2016, 03:15:51 PM
Could the shoulder bolts and pipes have been built as a roller to move the pivot up and down the helve? But then, what locked it in place? I'm not familiar with that part of the hammer at all and I may be plum off base!

The wobble I am talking about comes from the springiness of the wood and gaps between the wood and floor. However I agree you probably won't have a big problem.

I'm really impressed with your work on the hammer!

Bill D.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 07, 2016, 03:34:34 PM
Ferrier,

Look what I found in my stash! The dies came out of some hammer or another but they aren't too bad looking. I have what I think is a lower die key but it needs straightening. I couldn't find a upper die wedge(on a 25 the top wedge tapers two ways). Let me know if you think you want them.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 07, 2016, 04:29:36 PM
Ferrier,

Look what I found in my stash! The dies came out of some hammer or another but they aren't too bad looking. I have what I think is a lower die key but it needs straightening. I couldn't find a upper die wedge(on a 25 the top wedge tapers two ways). Let me know if you think you want them.
Heck yeah I do! PM Sent! :D
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 08, 2016, 06:18:38 PM
No appreciable progress today... My vacation is over, so I'm back to having to work Monday through Friday... I did paint a few parts, and they will be dried tomorrow so I can reassemble my pitman arms and get them back on the machine.

I special ordered a new 1-1/2" bolt for the hammer pivot, a grade 8 7" long bolt so it would have long enough shoulders, I'll have to cut it down after it's installed. $38 for a bolt >_> Granted... it's a pretty big honking bolt!

I'm going to experiment with leveling out the floor of the lower die dovetail with JB weld, filling in the little depression that was formed from using the wrong sized die. Once I get it up and running, I'll do a few minutes of pounding, then remove the die and see how it holds up... then a few hours if all goes well, etc, until I know whether or not it will hold up. I'd rather not try and grind it deeper, and install a plate if at all possible.

What has my curiosity today is the head of my hammer... The die holding part is dovetailed and shimmed onto the shaft, which I see is the case on the other completed hammers as well... but theirs all have a... retaining pin? of some sort on the top. At first I thought this was a bolt, but I looked inside of my hole, and there are no threads, and I don't see a broken off stub of bolt either. Instead it almost looks like a hemisphere is missing out of the head part, with a perfectly regular hole that goes through the arm... If that block slipped off the shaft, it could very easily kill me. So I definitely want to have some sort of positive lock like I see on the other hammers. Drilling and tapping it is probably the way to go, so now I need to buy a 3/4" tap. And hopefully I can tap it without having to remove it from the shaft...
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Nolatoolguy on August 08, 2016, 08:54:13 PM
Great progress your making, love the updates.

I was was thinking if jb fails perhaps try building it up with welds. I know Lincoln makes speciltiy rods for repairing cast iron pits an cracks
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 09, 2016, 05:12:38 AM
Great progress your making, love the updates.

I was was thinking if jb fails perhaps try building it up with welds. I know Lincoln makes speciltiy rods for repairing cast iron pits an cracks
Thabks for following n.n

Yep, I've used nickel mig wire in the past to repair my forge blower. In my experience,  it works well, but it's a little tricky, as you have to work very small areas at a time or the cast starts to crumble. The rods are basically the same thing. That probably is my next resort, I'm just leary of causing more damage than good, plus, it would be very difficult to grind a smooth surface in that tight dovetail. Hence starting with the easy thing, and I'll turn gradually more difficult as necessary...

I do appreciate the suggestion though, thank you!
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lazyassforge on August 09, 2016, 05:59:03 AM
Fenrir,

I have in the past used a router with a board mounted in place of the base to give more area and a mounted wheel(like you get in the harbor freight die grinders) with a flat bottom to sit on top of the hammer base and grind back and forth to smooth the bottom of the dovetail out. It is very slow and tedius work but it does clean it up pretty well. I have not tried JB weld so I can't say about it.

Im not sure about the pin in the helve but I think there shoould be something to hold it in place!

Bill D.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 09, 2016, 06:46:22 AM
Fenrir,

I have in the past used a router with a board mounted in place of the base to give more area and a mounted wheel(like you get in the harbor freight die grinders) with a flat bottom to sit on top of the hammer base and grind back and forth to smooth the bottom of the dovetail out. It is very slow and tedius work but it does clean it up pretty well. I have not tried JB weld so I can't say about it.

Im not sure about the pin in the helve but I think there shoould be something to hold it in place!

Bill D.
That's kind of brilliant! Haha, I'll keep that in mind. I figure the JB SHOULD work alright.... There's more cast iron the right height than there will be JB. The JB may be more compressible, but it will have to get through the rest of the cast before it starts deforming the JB...  In theory...

I asked the guy who restored his, and he said that is the one part he never had off. But, that it looks like it was somehow riveted together... The bump on the top is apparently a collar, and in the middle a pin has been peened... I've got to look at mine a little closer. If the hemisphere in the head is larger than the hole in the shaft, I should be able to just hammer in a hot piece of steel and have it mushroom in the recess and be virtually impossible to remove. If it's not.... Maybe I can make it be....
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 09, 2016, 06:19:51 PM
Well the hammer is now (mostly) complete! :D All the bits are back on the machine, and it turns over by hand very nicely! I'm still shy a pair of dies, but Lazyassforge was kind enough to donate a set to me, so they are on their way through the mail now! I expect they'll be installed before the weekend.

There are still a few adjustments to be made, I need to bend the foot pedal down to a reasonable angle for starters, and of course I still need to figure out how I want to hook a motor up to it. I have some ideas in my head, but progress is probably going to stall here for a little bit while I experiment, and look for parts.

I'm thinking of using a serpentine belt from a car to drive it, or just buying a bit of old flat belt on eBay with some lacing, but then I'll need to find a pulley as well... I also want to do some research into this system: http://www.gates.com/products/industrial/industrial-belts/synchronous-belts/synchro-power-polyurethane-belts

I have a big 1-1/2HP motor that looks awesome laying around, but I'm a little afraid of using it as the basis, because I'm not sure how it's wired... It's setup for either 110, or 220 volt depending on how the 4 wires that come out of it are spliced together. But I have no chart to tell me what's what, and the wires are all black fabric, so I don't know if it's setup for 110 or 220 at the moment... I can power either, I just need to figure out WHICH it is!

Also, a brief PSA:
Springs are devious creatures. DO NOT let your guard down when using clamps to compress a spring :P This is common sense to seasoned mechanics, but even they can become overconfident... I nearly lost the tip of my index finger putting my pitman arms back together...
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160809_193838_zpsuqx5fwdw.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160809_193820_zpstst7fk88.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160809_194017_zpsyzwge9cu.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on August 09, 2016, 06:44:36 PM
Twilight,  I have been following your interesting resurrection/restoration project,  I was glad to hear you say that you stop
 the progress to think out your next move.

 we all know what happens when we go all out to finish something, then have to waste more time to correct minor ? mistakes.

 that spring must have stung ya,  looks like a nasty blister,  when something like that happens, we tend to hesitate to look
 to see how much damage we did to our self.

 looking at the trip pedal, could you flip it over ??  it looks like it goes upwards, but if it can be flipped, would it be too low.

 keep up the good work, I will stay tuned in on this project.

 hope your finger feels better soon, Frank
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 09, 2016, 07:12:20 PM
Twilight,  I have been following your interesting resurrection/restoration project,  I was glad to hear you say that you stop
 the progress to think out your next move.

 we all know what happens when we go all out to finish something, then have to waste more time to correct minor ? mistakes.

 that spring must have stung ya,  looks like a nasty blister,  when something like that happens, we tend to hesitate to look
 to see how much damage we did to our self.

 looking at the trip pedal, could you flip it over ??  it looks like it goes upwards, but if it can be flipped, would it be too low.

 keep up the good work, I will stay tuned in on this project.

 hope your finger feels better soon, Frank

Haha, I tend to have an opposite problem... Once I pause something, I have a bad habit of never getting back to it :P My life is full of 90% complete projects, haha, but this one WILL get done!

I just have to take my cutting torch to the pedal and bend it down, there's no two ways about it. It's not the original pedal, but it is a very well crafted, hand made reproduction, my hats off to the original maker. The original would have had a little secondary bar that stuck out of the front of the hoop, and stepped down a bit further as well. With what I've got in my head for the bed I'm going to make for it, I'm also probably going to be making a slightly different, but similar idea extension bar for ease/comfort, which I intend to attach to the existing bar.

I'll have to sit down and make some sketches in the next day or two, and maybe share them to get some input.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 10, 2016, 06:07:36 AM
I want to power my hammer, and drill press, like this! :D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Q6VBw8ClU
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 10, 2016, 08:15:57 AM
Okay, so here's a rough sketch of what I've got in mind... (not to scale)  I plan on laying five 4x4s, 5ft long next to eachother and running 5/8" threaded rod through every foot, or maybe every 8"... Cutting the front to hug closer to the rounded nose of my machine.

I'm thinking of making a short "U"  shape out of 1" iron pipe, and attaching a 1/4 or 5/16 plate of steel at one end with a bunch of U bolts, or maybe a larger diameter pipe, to work as a pivot. The weight of thd motor serving for tension adjustment. Still looking into what to use for a belt, I'd really like a flat belt, and found where I can get a custom flat belt reasonably on eBay, but the motor pulley is still elusive.

The thing I'm not sure about is, I want to put anchor points at the 4 corners so I can run chains up and pick the thing up with my 2 ton engine hoist. I haven't figured out what kind of anchor to use, how to mount it, or even if it would stay together if I did so.... I THINK the 5/8 rod would hold everything together... Any thoughts?

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160810_075126_zpsviccvhsz.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on August 10, 2016, 12:17:47 PM
I think I would put 3/4" plywood on the top and bottom to hold the 4 by 4 together, using deck screws.
 would be nice if 1 sheet could do both sides. construction grade should be fine.

I've been monitoring this site to see when you fire that hammer up!
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/
<grin>
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 10, 2016, 06:03:55 PM
I think I would put 3/4" plywood on the top and bottom to hold the 4 by 4 together, using deck screws.
 would be nice if 1 sheet could do both sides. construction grade should be fine.

I've been monitoring this site to see when you fire that hammer up!
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/
<grin>
That is a VERY good idea, I'm gonna seriously consider doing that. And, yes, one sheet would do both sides :D
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on August 11, 2016, 07:45:13 PM
 Twilight,  what size motor pulley are you looking for ?  if you go with the flat belt.

  O.D.
  width
  shaft I.D.

  also, on the lifting points,  why not cut grooves completely from left to right deep enough to insert u-channel and drill
  from top thru channel for heavy duty long eye bolts.  the nuts and washers would be in the channel.

 just my 2 cent suggestion,  Frank

 
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 11, 2016, 08:16:44 PM
Twilight,  what size motor pulley are you looking for ?  if you go with the flat belt.

  O.D.
  width
  shaft I.D.

  also, on the lifting points,  why not cut grooves completely from left to right deep enough to insert u-channel and drill
  from top thru channel for heavy duty long eye bolts.  the nuts and washers would be in the channel.

 just my 2 cent suggestion,  Frank
O.D. would be about 2.5"
width I'm not 100% on off the top of my head, I think 1.5-2"
Shaft ID is 3/4"
I'm contemplating welding one up... but if you've got one laying around I'd happily purchase it from you! :D

That's an excellent idea... but, at least on the front, I can't have the eye-bolts come upwards, as they would interfere with the foot pedal. Plus, I don't really have an efficient way to cut such a channel into the 4x4s... That's a really good start of an idea though.... Maybe I could just bore a pair of larger diameter holes through the whole thing alongside the threaded rod holes, slip a piece of schedule 40 or 80 steel electrical conduit into them, and run chain right through the thing... As long as the pipe is pushed through directly under the machine, the holes wouldn't compromise the integrity of the wood while lifting.....
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on August 12, 2016, 02:34:40 PM
message to Twilight;

I just located an olds motor that has been here since ??????????????????????????????????

 (1st brass tag )

 Wagner Electric Mfg.   St. Louis, MO
 QAGNER quality ALTERNATING CURRENT MOTOR
 TYPE 7W6   BA    1 PHASE    1/3 HP   60 CYCLE
 110 V   6.4 AMPS        220 V      3.2 AMPS
 1725 RPM

 (2nd brass tag )
 patented,  there are 8 patent dates on the tag;   Oct. 27, 1903     to   July 29, 1913

 so, it has to be from 1913 or later.

  the pulley;  2 inch O.D
  2 1/8 inch wide
  the I.D. is 5/8 inch,  it has a 3/8" - 16  set screw to lock it on the shaft.

  if you or someone you know has a lathe, it has plenty of material to bore it out to 3/4 inch.

  if you can use this one PM me.   Frank
 
 
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Nolatoolguy on August 12, 2016, 10:50:50 PM
I hope this makes sense, let me know if it doesn't.

I would just run threaded rod through the hammer base, top plywood an 4x4 or maybe 6x6(depending how much you notch out) . Then add nuts an washers to both sides. Use some loctite so it doesn't shake loose.

To notch the 4x4 I would just set my saw depth an make passes untill wide enough channel is made.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on August 13, 2016, 04:15:42 AM
If I remember right (this is off the top of my fat head) 25# took 1.5 hp, 50# took 2hp, those are upright PH.
Not sure if the Easy needed less?  I have the L.G. book in my stuff somewhere?
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: mikeswrenches on August 13, 2016, 04:23:12 AM
In looking at your motor mounting setup, it might be better to turn it around so that the pivot bracket is mounted toward the frame and the motor hangs toward the rear.  This would make belt installation much easier as well as keeping tension on the belt in use more constant.

I had a wood lathe setup like I described and it worked great.  My two cents worth.
Nice job. I've enjoyed watching all this come together.

Mike
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 13, 2016, 03:48:29 PM
Well, I picked up the materials to make my base today! I'm gonna go with the 4x4s sandwiched between 3/4" plywood sheets. Threaded rod, and the pipe running through it to pass chains through. I'll either start on it after I eat dinner here, or tomorrow... I don't expect it to take more than a couple hours, but these simple tasks usually manage to surprise me...

Also, my dies, generously donated by Lazyassforge arrived today! The lower die will fit nicely once I make a shim for it... the upper is too large.... However, better too large than too small, it's much easier to grind it to fit than to try to weld it to fit! :P

message to Twilight;

I just located an olds motor that has been here since ??????????????????????????????????

  the pulley;  2 inch O.D
  2 1/8 inch wide
  the I.D. is 5/8 inch,  it has a 3/8" - 16  set screw to lock it on the shaft.

  if you or someone you know has a lathe, it has plenty of material to bore it out to 3/4 inch.

  if you can use this one PM me.   Frank

Hmm, well, less than 2-1/4" will drop me below the hammers "optimal" speed of 325RPM. I believe there's room for adjustment, however, so quite possibly. For now, I have a scheme to try to make one that would be exactly the right size, which I'll fiddle with tomorrow. If that falls through, I'll come looking for yours!

If I remember right (this is off the top of my fat head) 25# took 1.5 hp, 50# took 2hp, those are upright PH.
Not sure if the Easy needed less?  I have the L.G. book in my stuff somewhere?
If /I/ remember right, the 25# calls for a 3/4hp motor... but, again, this is off the top of my head as well :P

Well, I looked it up, and the 25# wants a 1HP, the 50# wants 2HP. So the 35lb Easy Helve should be right in the middle, right?!? Haha, no, I'm sure it doesn't work that way... That being said, I'm honestly not sure what kind of difference the HP of the motor really makes... The smith I learned from ran his 50# hammer with a 1/2HP motor, seemingly just fine o.o He's been using it that way for over a decade!

In looking at your motor mounting setup, it might be better to turn it around so that the pivot bracket is mounted toward the frame and the motor hangs toward the rear.  This would make belt installation much easier as well as keeping tension on the belt in use more constant.

I had a wood lathe setup like I described and it worked great.  My two cents worth.
Nice job. I've enjoyed watching all this come together.

Mike
It may very well be better the other way around, I turned it that way to try to save a little bit of space. The "foot" of the hammer sticks out past the body, so if I put it on MY way, I could snug the motor up a little closer to the frame, and shorten the overall footprint... But I'll fiddle with it a bit and see, I have a waist-belt I can slip on to turn by hand and get an approximate feel for it. Thanks for the input!
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on August 13, 2016, 07:10:11 PM
 when I mentioned about boring out the I.D. of a pulley on the lathe,  I should of also made note of an easier way.

 in the drill press,   if it has a 5/8 inch I.D. put a  5/8" drill in the press, slide the pulley on the bit and clamp down in position,
 you now have it centered.   I would first use a 11/16" bit, then go to the 3/4".

 then remember to run a tap thru the locating hole to take off any burrs.

 just a suggestion, you may have already done rebores this way.  Frank
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 14, 2016, 01:38:54 PM
when I mentioned about boring out the I.D. of a pulley on the lathe,  I should of also made note of an easier way.

 in the drill press,   if it has a 5/8 inch I.D. put a  5/8" drill in the press, slide the pulley on the bit and clamp down in position,
 you now have it centered.   I would first use a 11/16" bit, then go to the 3/4".

 then remember to run a tap thru the locating hole to take off any burrs.

 just a suggestion, you may have already done rebores this way.  Frank
I have not done rebores that way, actually, that's a very helpful, and now that I think about it incredibly obvious, idea! haha, oh the things we don't think of ourselves... I don't do much machine work in general, just enough to keep things running.


Alright, I finished building my base! It went together pretty well, and is solid as a tank! I assembled all the boards, then used my belt sander to bring everything into flat, before sandwiching it with plywood. Luckily, I had all the long drill bits I needed from when I built my anvil and vise stands the first time 'round. Everything actually went pretty smoothly. I was a little worried when I put the hammer on the platform, as it was a little bit wobbly... but after sinking the 5/8" lag screws into it, she's solid as a rock! And it's all very easily picked up with my hoist, so mission successful! Now I'm going to eat some lunch, then go start fiddling with a motor mount...

BEHOLD! The world's most impractical surfboard!
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160814_130540_zpslw30avmg.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160814_135736_zpscpiirppq.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 14, 2016, 04:54:55 PM
Whelp, the original idea I had for a motor mount is out the window.... My mount was thought up to be in the middle of my platform, but for some reason it didn't occur to me that the flywheel on the hammer is way off center. So I'll have to design up something else...

One of my friends has this little trolly for a motor... the motor sits on a little pad, and there's a screw like a vise on it that lets you crank the motor one way or the other... Gonna hafta do a little research into that...

Also, attempts at welding a pulley failed, it looks great, but it's not straight when spun. It's not surprising that my welding abilities aren't machinist grade :P So, I'm going to consider my options on that one... I've heard you can make one out of layers of plywood glued together, which is certainly interesting.... Or maybe I could glue/weld something 1/8" thick around the perimeter of Turnnut's pulley. Either way, I really need to fix my big drill press, and put a motor on my little one so I can be more accurate than hand drilling...

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160814_180537_zps2iczkm5k.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160814_181349_zpsjxpvkh6d.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on August 14, 2016, 05:24:12 PM
looks good did you put a sealer on the wood?

Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 14, 2016, 05:45:20 PM
looks good did you put a sealer on the wood?
No, I didn't... It's all treated lumber, so I'm not worried about rot... And, I don't really care that it's gonna soak up a ton of oil, will keep my floor clean :P

Huh, well these adjustable motor mounts are more reasonable than I would have guessed...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=Adjustable+electric+motor+mount+204&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XAdjustable+electric+motor+mount.TRS0&_nkw=Adjustable+electric+motor+mount&_sacat=0

But, wouldn't you know it, I've got a wonky sized motor... I bet I could fab up an adapter plate pretty easily though...
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Lewill2 on August 14, 2016, 06:05:23 PM
You could lag the drive pulley with conveyor belting or even leather.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 15, 2016, 07:35:53 PM
Well, it seems my hammer is the focus of another donation today... I had posted a wanted ad in a Blacksmith facebook page looking for a pulley, and one of the machinists there just cranked one out for me, exactly to spec for what I needed. Just asked that I pass on knowledge, which I do freely. I've had a few people come learn some basics, and always invite those who are interested to come try their hand at it.

Also, want to acknowledge Turnnut who offered me his pulley, but it's just slightly too small, and I really want to be spot on for the resonance frequency of this hammer...

Right now, I'm leaning towards one of these belts: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOUTH-BEND-ATLAS-LOGAN-DRIVE-FLAT-BELT-3-16-X-2-1-2-CUSTOM-CUT-LATHE-Mill-etc-/291792261599?hash=item43f02c91df:m:mPes1NEBVmGCrvHD53kfZQQ

I think it will be a little easier to run the relatively small pulley with a composite belt than an original leather one.

I think I've figured out a small tweak to my motor mount concept that will make it work, I just need to go pick up another elbow and a small stub of pipe. Then, I need to swing by my local scrap yard and find a plate of steel to weld to the pivot, and mount the motor on.

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/Custom%20pulley_zpsnvstlwbe.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 18, 2016, 05:40:08 PM
Well, progress hasn't been great, but it hasn't been stalled either. I've been throwing about an hour a day after work tinkering with bits and pieces...

I've got my new motor mount finished, and installed. It's made out of 1" sched. 40 Iron pipe, while I have a length of 1-1/4" pipe with a plate welded to it slipped over it so it can pivot freely. Actually bolting my motor to it is going to wait until my new pulley gets here, so i can be sure on the alignment.

Also made my power switch tower. Used an aluminum railing post for it, still have to notch the bottom so it will fit all the way on the platform, but it will do nicely. Have the hole drilled in the back for the metal-clad wire to come into it at the base, and will have a double-pole switch to turn it on and off... I almost bought a few awesome antique frankenstein-movie-esque switches at yard sales to mount on it... but in an emergency they'd be too difficult, so I'm going with a boring old toggle switch.

I believe I have all the parts for my hammer now, except for the belt, which I will order once I get my pulley and figure out exactly what length I need... I could probably finish it in the next weekend or two, if I didn't have an event to prepare for, and attend, so it's only going to get what spare time I throw at it for at least the next two weeks...
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160818_192154_zpsfb58nhgq.jpg)

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160818_192209_zpsmbd24xpi.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on August 18, 2016, 06:39:42 PM
 think about asking for a spare or two belt clip pins.

 will the motor turn in the right direction ? or will the hammer operate either way ?
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: gibsontool on August 18, 2016, 06:53:18 PM
I have a couple of rolls of belting that look very similar to what you want,might not be too practical to ship because I'm In Canada.
 These belts are new and have been in one of my sheds for many years,there yours for the cost of shipping.
  I'll take some pictures tomorrow, and some dimensions and get them posted. I'm going to be in Portland Oregon around the 10th of September. I can bring them down and send them from Portland which would be a lot less costly. From my experience this type of belt is used in sawmill applications for a slowdown belt behind the planer and on relatively steep inclines, I can't say I've ever seen these belts used for power transmission but  for what you need they are probably adequate. If memory serve me correctly they are about 5 to 6" wide and maybe 4 to 5 feet long. Talk to you tomorrow.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: gibsontool on August 19, 2016, 12:42:07 PM
OK I dug out the belting, have 3 rolls,all are 6"wide.One is 5' long and the other two are 9'- 2" long. The two long ones have the ends prepared for a vulcanized splice but clips would work fine. The label says they made by " Siegling " and they are for power transmission and conveyor belting. They are similar to the picture you posted, the high spots on the belt measure 1/4" and the valleys measure 5/32". Don't have a decent scale here but I would guess about 5 lbs. for a 9' roll.
 Having trouble getting the pics posted, I have posted pics before but I must be doing something wrong. I'm not too computer literate but my wife and daughter will be back soon and they got the know how.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 22, 2016, 05:52:33 PM
Sorry for the delay getting back on here, had a hectic weekend... My new pulley came today, and fits like a glove! It's incredibly well made. It's scary how light aluminum is though :P I got all of the bits of wiring assembled, just waiting to mount the motor before I make all the connections... Then I just need to make some adjustments to my dies, and thread a hole into the hammer head to keep it on the shaft, and it should be ready to go once I get a belt!

I also picked up THE portable forge I've been looking for forever, a Champion Blower & Forge no. 142! I've got an event this weekend, so my spare time for the next three days is going into crunch-rebuilding that baby. It's amazingly well preserved, all of the original bolts were still on it, and all but one unthreaded with nothing more than a crescent wrench...

think about asking for a spare or two belt clip pins.

 will the motor turn in the right direction ? or will the hammer operate either way ?
Well, I'm pretty sure I can make new pins if I need to...

I thought about that, but I honestly can't see how the direction of rotation would affect the operation of the hammer... The motor turns counter-clockwise when looking at the shaft.

OK I dug out the belting, have 3 rolls,all are 6"wide.One is 5' long and the other two are 9'- 2" long. The two long ones have the ends prepared for a vulcanized splice but clips would work fine. The label says they made by " Siegling " and they are for power transmission and conveyor belting. They are similar to the picture you posted, the high spots on the belt measure 1/4" and the valleys measure 5/32". Don't have a decent scale here but I would guess about 5 lbs. for a 9' roll.
 Having trouble getting the pics posted, I have posted pics before but I must be doing something wrong. I'm not too computer literate but my wife and daughter will be back soon and they got the know how.
Hmm... interesting... I wonder how hard it would be to cut that in half lengthwise.... I know I need about 6'-7', so it would have to be one of the long rolls. High spots and low spots? Is it serrated like a timing belt? o.o


(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160822_155715_zps9ykqgzbh.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: gibsontool on August 22, 2016, 07:18:08 PM
Here are the pictures I promised
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: gibsontool on August 22, 2016, 07:19:34 PM
More pics
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: gibsontool on August 22, 2016, 08:01:15 PM
Sorry it took so long,our internet was down over the weekend. The belt is easy to cut with a box knife and a straight edge, I used to have quite a bit more but I cut it up and used it for bumpers on my dock so I know it is easy to cut. These belts are sort of similar to a timing belt but you can see the difference in the pictures. You could try googling the manufacturer to get more info on the belts but the label does say it is used for power transmission so it should work fine. The manufacturer should give info as to what type of clips are best to use for splicing. Let me know if you want it before the end of August and I'll throw it in the truck and send it when we get to Portland. Sounds like one roll would give you two belts but you can have it all if you want it.
  Sure like to see some pics of the the new blower and forge when you have time. Jim
.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Lewill2 on August 23, 2016, 04:24:16 AM
The belting pictured looks to be a standard rough top belting used on package conveyors. It might work fine for powering the hammer but it was intended for conveying product. Good thread.

I've never fooled with flat belt drives for equipment but with package conveyor belting the head and tail pulleys are usually crowned to help keep the belt tracked on the center of the pulleys. I have attended a few antique tractor shows and when they setup a flat belt drive from a tractor to a piece of equipment the belt never seems to be very tight. I never noticed if those pulleys are crowned or not. If your motor isn't square with the driven pulley you might have issues with keeping the belt on the pulleys. The weight of your motor might be to much for the drive setup and you might have to add an adjuster to reduce the belt tension. The belt lacing has to be put on square to keep the belt joint straight. If you are close to a major city/industrial area there will probably be a conveyor belt company in the area that would cut and or lace the belt for you. If you can take it to their shop it wouldn't cost to much to have it laced.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on August 23, 2016, 08:47:13 AM
to check the Siegling co.  google Forbo belts.

they are having their 60th anniversary this year.

If you go to their site, they have all kinds of belting.

Forbo Movement System
Forbo Siegling LLC
12201 Vanstory Drive
Huntersville, N.C. 28078
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 23, 2016, 08:57:31 AM

Sorry it took so long,our internet was down over the weekend. The belt is easy to cut with a box knife and a straight edge, I used to have quite a bit more but I cut it up and used it for bumpers on my dock so I know it is easy to cut. These belts are sort of similar to a timing belt but you can see the difference in the pictures. You could try googling the manufacturer to get more info on the belts but the label does say it is used for power transmission so it should work fine. The manufacturer should give info as to what type of clips are best to use for splicing. Let me know if you want it before the end of August and I'll throw it in the truck and send it when we get to Portland. Sounds like one roll would give you two belts but you can have it all if you want it.
  Sure like to see some pics of the the new blower and forge when you have time. Jim
.
Hmm, I'll look into how to join the ends when I get off work, but it's certainly an interesting idea. I wonder now if steel lacing on traditional flat belts would chew up the aluminum pulley over time... I'll tack a picture of the forge on the end of this post. That's how I picked it up. I'm almost done whipping it into shape, and will post a picture again when it's done.



The belting pictured looks to be a standard rough top belting used on package conveyors. It might work fine for powering the hammer but it was intended for conveying product. Good thread.

I've never fooled with flat belt drives for equipment but with package conveyor belting the head and tail pulleys are usually crowned to help keep the belt tracked on the center of the pulleys. I have attended a few antique tractor shows and when they setup a flat belt drive from a tractor to a piece of equipment the belt never seems to be very tight. I never noticed if those pulleys are crowned or not. If your motor isn't square with the driven pulley you might have issues with keeping the belt on the pulleys. The weight of your motor might be to much for the drive setup and you might have to add an adjuster to reduce the belt tension. The belt lacing has to be put on square to keep the belt joint straight. If you are close to a major city/industrial area there will probably be a conveyor belt company in the area that would cut and or lace the belt for you. If you can take it to their shop it wouldn't cost to much to have it laced.
Well, the pulley I got for my motor is crowned as well, and usually old flat belt pulleys are crowned as well. However, it doesn't seem that the flywheel on my hammer is crowned, so I'm slightly concerned about that, but we'll see how it goes. If it comes down to it, I can get it spinning and hold a file against it to give it at least a little bevel...

There's nowhere I know of.... That..... Hmmmmm.... Maybe that place in Virgina I vaguely recall hearing about.... I'll have to look into that!

My motor mount/tension setup is based on someone doing a similar restoration to the same type of hammer. Though, they were using a V belt on the flat pulley, so it may be different. My drill press runs on a flat belt, and is screw adjusted very tight. There's nothing to do but try, and see what happens!

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/Tool%20Pron/00x0x_3YabOJz2JMn_600x450_zpss2xbn2dp.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: gibsontool on August 23, 2016, 09:25:56 AM
Lewill2 makes some good points, the splice must be square or it will be very hard to get it to track properly and you may some adjusters on each side of the motor to get good alignment. I have seen flat pulleys that have been modified to crowned by using a thin flatbar 1/8" or so wrapped around the center of the pulley  and fastened by welding or drilling and tapping holes in the drum and fastening the bar with counter sunk bevel head screws. If your belt is 3"wide a 3/4 or 1" bar should do the trick,each outside edge should be ground down to thin edge to make it a smooth crown effect. This would take a bit of time but I know it works.
 Nice looking blower and forge.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 23, 2016, 10:21:51 AM
Lewill2 makes some good points, the splice must be square or it will be very hard to get it to track properly and you may some adjusters on each side of the motor to get good alignment. I have seen flat pulleys that have been modified to crowned by using a thin flatbar 1/8" or so wrapped around the center of the pulley  and fastened by welding or drilling and tapping holes in the drum and fastening the bar with counter sunk bevel head screws. If your belt is 3"wide a 3/4 or 1" bar should do the trick,each outside edge should be ground down to thin edge to make it a smooth crown effect. This would take a bit of time but I know it works.
 Nice looking blower and forge.
I was wondering if that would be a way to crown it or not... But, that would fiddle with thr RPMs a little bit too. 1/8" x 2 is 1/4"....  *does some othet math* actually, that's a perfectly acceptable tollerance on the flywheel end...

If both pulleys are crowned, alignment doesn't matter nearly as much. You can bend around corners with a flatbelt with crowned pulleys. I think up to like 20 degrees if I remember right.

But, I'm going to be as precise as I can be. I plan to hang a plumb bob off the outside of the hammer pulley, and measure out from the body of the hammer, then reproduce that measurement on the motor pulley.  Only way I can think of to do it, other than just a really big straight edge, but that would take 4 hands. :P
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on August 23, 2016, 11:14:17 AM
 do you have a laser level ?   you could center it on the hammer pulley and then shine it on the center of your motor pulley.

 just a 2 cent thought.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 23, 2016, 01:12:07 PM
do you have a laser level ?   you could center it on the hammer pulley and then shine it on the center of your motor pulley.

 just a 2 cent thought.
Oooh! That's a great idea! Haha, thanks! Super obvious now that you mention it, but it never would have occurred to me!
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 24, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
And, I'm now getting ready for the Fur Trader Rendezvous, I'll be leaving tomorrow, so I've been working on my forge instead. It's all done, and pretty now! It's somehow even better than I ever dreamed it would be. That little blower really moves a lot of air. It will be MUCH better than the little no-name Rivet forge I've been using.

But, work on the hammer will continue next week.

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/Tool%20Pron/IMG_20160824_161110_zpskj3nfocc.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on August 24, 2016, 05:49:47 PM
to check the Siegling co.  google Forbo belts.

they are having their 60th anniversary this year.

If you go to their site, they have all kinds of belting.

Just got around to looking into this tonight... A very interesting site indeed. After poking about, I did find the belt Gibson is offering, and it is conveying belting, not power transmission belting, so it's probably not compatible with my purposes.

http://www.forbo.com/movement/en-gl/products/conveyor-belts/siegling-transilon/pmjqhv#panel_0

I really appreciate the offer Gibson, but I just don't think it's what I need. The "Power Transmission and Conveyor belting" printed on the packaging seems to be a reference to what the company produces, rather than the specific item in the package... that's my interpretation anyway...
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: gibsontool on August 24, 2016, 08:33:30 PM
OK I have to agree, I think my interpretation was wrong as to what my belts were designed for. I had looked at one of your earlier posts showing some similar belting that I thought you were considering. I  was pretty sure I had some similar belt so I threw it out there.
   Hope you find what you need.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Lewill2 on August 25, 2016, 03:22:22 AM
The conveyor belting would probably work because all belts power transmission or conveyor are rated by the smallest bend radius and the lacing. The lacing is rated so much pull per inch of belt width. The bend radius will affect the belt life due to flexing of the woven belt fabric materials.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on September 09, 2016, 04:16:18 PM
Whew, sorry for the lack of updates, it's been a hectic time, and will continue to be until after the 25th. I sold almost everything I had with me at the last fur trade rendezvous, and the next one that's coming up is historically where I sell the most! So my shop work has been sidelined while I try to replenish my inventory...

In the mean time... I picked up some new hammers! :D I snagged a 3lb Atha cross pein, which just came in the mail today, and a 6lb Atha straight pein which is scheduled to arrive tomorrow morning! Both will be handled, dressed and stove-polished for use tomorrow. The 3lb looks like it has never been swung! (It's a little rusty, but there are no other marks on the face/pein.)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kTIAAOSwFe5Xzdw5/s-l1600.jpg)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~owAAOSwZVlXrMjw/s-l1600.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on September 27, 2016, 07:46:23 PM
Wooo! My last fur trade rendezvous is finally out of the way, so now it's back to remodeling my shop, and rebuilding my hammer!

I ordered, received, and installed my belt the other day. I also got the motor wired up.

Today, I picked up the hammer using the chain and holes I made for it, which worked stunningly well. Kept the whole thing nice and level while I moved it around... The moving.... didn't go as stunningly... my garage floor isn't the flattest thing, so I wound up jamming a crow bar under my engine hoist and levering it slowly across my garage to it's final resting place.

Plugged it in and... yes! The motor works! The informed guesswork I did on wiring it up seems to have been successful! Awesome.....

So why isn't there right now a video of me using said hammer attached to this posting? Wweeeeellllll..... not everything is perfect :P The pipes I used for the motor mount twisted with the torque of the motor, disaligning the drive pulley from the machine. Woops. To counter this, I'm going to straighten it, then drill and tap holes through each connection and thread a small bolt to keep everything from going anywhere.

I still need to de-tweak the treadle loop, too.

Also, there is work to be done with the dies yet.... As it turns out, the dies I received are not hardened. Which, is good actually, because I need to make the upper die significantly narrower than it is. I plan to slap it on my horizontal bandsaw and slice off about half an inch to make it fit, so it being annealed is great! Though, there's some niggling concern in the back of my head that perhaps the dies aren't annealed high carbon steel, and are just mild steel... but I'll try hardening the lower die and see what I get. My current suspicion, is that they were made, but the creator forgot to heat treat them before putting them into use, which is how they wound up somewhat deformed as they are. Time will tell on that one...

Anywho, here she is all belted up. In this picture she's not finished being wired yet, but she is done in that respect right now.

(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/Midnight_Fenrir/easy%20helve/IMG_20160923_140154_zpsn4q1m50v.jpg)
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on October 07, 2016, 07:27:44 AM
I've been fiddling with it here and there, but I haven't made any progress... My motor mount has to be torn off, welded, and put back on. I also need to put some tensioning springs, as the weight of the motor doesn't tension the belt enough...

But! If you' d like your own Easy-Helve, one just popped up on CL!
http://cnj.craigslist.org/for/5816930230.html
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Nolatoolguy on December 27, 2016, 08:56:33 PM
Hey how is the project coming?

Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on December 29, 2016, 10:05:51 AM
Hey how is the project coming?
I haven't gotten around to finishing it just yet ^^;

I have a million excuses for it... Had to make stuff for orders, and the holidays.... And winter has certainly played a big role, it's tough to feel motivated to get out to the shop when it's pitch black at 5pm; after I get home from work and eat...

It's still pretty much done, and I know what I'm going to do to overcome the last few hurdles, but I need to feel that motivation to do it. Right now, I'm swimming in ideas for hand-wrought projects, and restoring a few other tools. (I.E. I got a leg vise from about 1750 for my historical reenactment that I need to make a new mounting plate, and make an original style pivot to replace the bolt someone stuck in it)

I also stole some time to retrofit a ~1950s Craftsman bandsaw to cut steel, to fullfill a $250 order for crosses.

But, I've been doing research on using kerosene instead of Borax for forge welding, something I can do in my gas forge without worrying about eating my forge. So sooner or later I'm going to start experimenting with damascus again, and then that power hammer is gonna be a higher priority once more...

Rest assured, as soon as it's done, I'll be sharing videos :3 Just been distracted.... Sorry ^^;
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on December 29, 2016, 01:18:04 PM
My Mayer bros 50# is sitting there needing be moved and connected up, it was getting the attention of my son who wanted to make a couple of rr spike knives. Using the buffalo forge and coal. He did make a couple of knives, couple of garden tools.
He was complaining how hard the spikes were to work when went from bright red to dark red.
The twists turned out nice!
video of him making the twist in the spike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2jo_OcIzYM

and a video of him working on the blade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNmZiAu1iRs

well at least he wasn't playing video games

Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on March 24, 2018, 12:44:40 PM
Well, I know it's been a while, but I finally have an update! :D Today I finally threw the last hour I needed to get my power hammer working at it, and it's up and running! (I am so silly with my procrastination...)

I still need some dies, and there's a little fine tuning to do, but it's basically working!

https://youtu.be/psWp2ZQW-TQ
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on March 24, 2018, 12:50:33 PM
Cool!
I still need to make dies also, the ones that were in mine had been arc welded in.
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: Twilight Fenrir on March 24, 2018, 04:16:07 PM
Cool!
I still need to make dies also, the ones that were in mine had been arc welded in.
Ouch, well, that's one way to keep them from working loose...

I was given this link as a suggestion for fabricating my own dies... Looks crazy enough to work! And, I can do it for next to nothing, as I can use the cap off RR rail for the working surface, and I have nearly a literal ton of rail laying around :D

http://www.metalsmith.org/pub/mtlsmith/V16.4/weld-die.htm
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: lptools on March 24, 2018, 05:22:51 PM
Nice job on getting that Power Hammer running!!!!!!  good luck with your next project!!! Regards, Lou
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: turnnut on March 24, 2018, 06:07:26 PM
Twilight Fenrir,  good to see your updates on your projects. glad to see the power hammer working. Frank
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on March 30, 2018, 05:15:28 PM
a couple of pics of the horror that is my power hammer dies. This is one, not sure where the other one is? Chiseled most of it, some hacksaw work. Wasn't easy!
Title: Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
Post by: oldgoaly on April 01, 2018, 02:16:30 PM
I don't know if I or anyone else mentioned this book and how detailed it is. The Little Giant Power Hammer by Richard Kern.
I was thinking about the dies if they needed to be a certain height like a Sheet metal power hammer. Enough differences to keep you guessing.