Author Topic: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!  (Read 16124 times)

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Offline lazyassforge

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2016, 06:45:14 PM »
Also, please forgive my typing, I'm using my thumb on my smartphone and it sometimes decides it doesn't like what I typed!!!

Offline Twilight Fenrir

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2016, 11:35:27 AM »
Also, please forgive my typing, I'm using my thumb on my smartphone and it sometimes decides it doesn't like what I typed!!!
Haha, I think we all know what that's like...

So! todays project got out a little rocky, and I'm not exactly sure what to do...

The spider wheel doesn't appear to have any babbit in it at all, looks like it's just a steel on steel interface. The shaft where the spider wheel rides is worn down where the wheel rides (no surprise there for steel on steel) but even at the worst spot, there's only a 1/32 difference in radius. Out on the un-worn shaft, there's 1/64. Can babbit be poured that thin? Do I need to? o.o I've never really dealt with machining on any kind of accurate capacity...

I've decided I'm going to use a deck of cards as shim stock for the main shaft bearings. They're almost exactly the correct size and shape, and they'll be easy to cut and drill while still packaged. (I think) They're thin, and easy to add/remove as wear necessitates.

And, I picked up a piece of 1/4" poplar to slip behind the wood clutch blocks.

I e-mailed the people who restored the green helve pictured above and asked them about the dies, and they provided me with copies of the original mechanical drawings! How awesome is that?!? I'll run them by my local machine shop, and see if they might be willing to do a run of one or two of them for me.












Offline Twilight Fenrir

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2016, 03:16:36 PM »
Eh, I just went with it XD The hammer has clearly been operating with the clutch that way forever, so I just cleaned it up as best I could, and oiled the heck out of it.

Turns out the clutch blocks are just fine, had to slim down those little steel plates that someone fabricated to keep the block in place though. It still sticks every now and then, so I'll keep feeding it oil until it stops.

Got all the main shaft bearings to within one card thickness of as tight as it can be without interfering with movement. Nothing super exciting there...

Tomorrow, (or possibly after dinner) I start looking at shimming out the hammer pivot plates...


Offline lazyassforge

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2016, 03:47:07 PM »
I haven't seen a little giant that ran steel on steel but, I don't doubt it at all!!! I believe if I was in your situation, I would do the same thing! If the clutch is "grabby" and engages all at once then I would work on the clearance! I'm anxious for you to get that thing going! I'm sure a machine shop can make the dies and keys but I'm not sure if it will save much money. But it can't hurt to check! I like your aggressiveness in getting it put together.

I really like your idea of using playing cards for shims!!

Best of luck Bill D.

Offline Twilight Fenrir

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2016, 07:20:08 PM »
I haven't seen a little giant that ran steel on steel but, I don't doubt it at all!!! I believe if I was in your situation, I would do the same thing! If the clutch is "grabby" and engages all at once then I would work on the clearance! I'm anxious for you to get that thing going! I'm sure a machine shop can make the dies and keys but I'm not sure if it will save much money. But it can't hurt to check! I like your aggressiveness in getting it put together.

I really like your idea of using playing cards for shims!!

Best of luck Bill D.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong? I don't see any seams, or transitions though... It DOES seem odd that this would be different. Maybe I'll try to find a little giant spider wheel in the future...

Thanks for the input on the grabbiness! Blah, now I'll have to take it all apart again :P But, the thought just occurred to me, when I get around to hooking a motor up to it, I'll have to take it all apart to get the belt on, unless I wrangle up some flat belt with lacing... which I might do...

Well, if they throw out a $400 quote, I'll go talk to the members of my metalsmith guild, there are a couple of machinists there, I just don't like asking for favors...

Maybe tomorrow, maybe Monday, I'm gonna go get 25 feet of treated 4x4 lumber to build a bed for it. I'm 6'6" tall, and the anvil height is just a few inches too low for me. This will also give me something to mount the motor to without having to drill holes in the frame. I'm also pondering ways to anchor some large eyes onto the bed, so I can drop chains down to the 4 corners and pick it and the machine up to move it for serving... Gonna hafta put LOTS of all-thread through it to make it strong enough for THAT.

It makes me feel a lot better having someone who did such amazing work on that little giant offering tips and feedback. I really appreciate you following along on this with me, thank you.

Offline lazyassforge

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2016, 08:30:30 PM »
Yeah, Little Giant made their machines awful low! I have all of mine setting on the floor but I always think about raising them up to be more user friendly. One thing to watch is that sometimes putting the machine up on four by fours causes the machine to wobble. I always figured that any energy used wobbling was energy the machine did not put into hammering the metal! On your machine, all the movement will be down low and in line with the long axis of the machine so I don't think it will be much of a problem! I don't know how much I know but I don't mind sharing what I do know!!

Hope this helps, Bill D

Offline lazyassforge

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2016, 08:52:50 PM »
If you already have the clutch together, I wouldn't pull it apart unless it is grabby when you go to using it. I have had to lift the shaft up on machines before because I forgot to put the belt on! It sounds like you have it all planned out pretty good!

Offline Twilight Fenrir

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2016, 12:29:04 PM »
Yeah, Little Giant made their machines awful low! I have all of mine setting on the floor but I always think about raising them up to be more user friendly. One thing to watch is that sometimes putting the machine up on four by fours causes the machine to wobble. I always figured that any energy used wobbling was energy the machine did not put into hammering the metal! On your machine, all the movement will be down low and in line with the long axis of the machine so I don't think it will be much of a problem! I don't know how much I know but I don't mind sharing what I do know!!

Hope this helps, Bill D
Well, I was planning to build a bed of five 4x4x60's, with 1/2" all-thread running through them all to bind them together every foot. Then bolt the machine down to the bed. I can't imagine how this might cause wobbling, especially with the low center of gravity on this machine, but I'll keep an eye out for it!

Well, I shimmed out the hammer plates today, I'm treating this machine as sort of a time capsule :P The plates angled inwards ever so slightly towards the front, so the shaft wouldn't fit between them. I just made a little spacer out of 1/2" iron pipe and slipped it in there with a bolt through it, seems to do the trick. Everyone thought i was nuts when I grabbed the jars, and jars of old bolts out of my grandfather's basement when we were clearing out the house, but because of that I'm pretty well stocked for this machine! :D

I took appart the pitman arm assembly, cleaning out all the pivot points, and ground off that bubblegum. The steel underneath it looks just fine, so I'm not going to fiddle with it. I think I AM going to just replace all of these pivots with some grade 8 bolts. Yeah, it will clash with the rest of the machine, but unlike most of the other bolts, these ones are going to take a beating.

The only problem I'm milling over in my head, is the top pivot where both pitman arms come together... The original part appeared to have a central shoulder, with threads on both sides rather than being a bolt, and this central area was larger than the outside edges, presumably so the shoulders would hold the plates apart, but there's a sleeve that goes outside of THAT that is the exact same length as the shoulders, meaning that the sleeve would keep the parts spaced as well...

So, I've got a few options, I can make a new part like the original. I've got some 7/8" round stock, I can just carefully grind it into shape and thread both ends. I can get a grade 8 bolt the size of the center piece, and have to go buy a $20 drill bit so I can make the holes in the side plates big enough to accept it. Or I can find a grade 8 bolt the size of the threaded ends, and find/make a bushing... I think I like the last idea best, but I haven't decided just yet...






Offline lazyassforge

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2016, 03:15:51 PM »
Could the shoulder bolts and pipes have been built as a roller to move the pivot up and down the helve? But then, what locked it in place? I'm not familiar with that part of the hammer at all and I may be plum off base!

The wobble I am talking about comes from the springiness of the wood and gaps between the wood and floor. However I agree you probably won't have a big problem.

I'm really impressed with your work on the hammer!

Bill D.

Offline lazyassforge

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2016, 03:34:34 PM »
Ferrier,

Look what I found in my stash! The dies came out of some hammer or another but they aren't too bad looking. I have what I think is a lower die key but it needs straightening. I couldn't find a upper die wedge(on a 25 the top wedge tapers two ways). Let me know if you think you want them.

Offline Twilight Fenrir

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2016, 04:29:36 PM »
Ferrier,

Look what I found in my stash! The dies came out of some hammer or another but they aren't too bad looking. I have what I think is a lower die key but it needs straightening. I couldn't find a upper die wedge(on a 25 the top wedge tapers two ways). Let me know if you think you want them.
Heck yeah I do! PM Sent! :D

Offline Twilight Fenrir

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2016, 06:18:38 PM »
No appreciable progress today... My vacation is over, so I'm back to having to work Monday through Friday... I did paint a few parts, and they will be dried tomorrow so I can reassemble my pitman arms and get them back on the machine.

I special ordered a new 1-1/2" bolt for the hammer pivot, a grade 8 7" long bolt so it would have long enough shoulders, I'll have to cut it down after it's installed. $38 for a bolt >_> Granted... it's a pretty big honking bolt!

I'm going to experiment with leveling out the floor of the lower die dovetail with JB weld, filling in the little depression that was formed from using the wrong sized die. Once I get it up and running, I'll do a few minutes of pounding, then remove the die and see how it holds up... then a few hours if all goes well, etc, until I know whether or not it will hold up. I'd rather not try and grind it deeper, and install a plate if at all possible.

What has my curiosity today is the head of my hammer... The die holding part is dovetailed and shimmed onto the shaft, which I see is the case on the other completed hammers as well... but theirs all have a... retaining pin? of some sort on the top. At first I thought this was a bolt, but I looked inside of my hole, and there are no threads, and I don't see a broken off stub of bolt either. Instead it almost looks like a hemisphere is missing out of the head part, with a perfectly regular hole that goes through the arm... If that block slipped off the shaft, it could very easily kill me. So I definitely want to have some sort of positive lock like I see on the other hammers. Drilling and tapping it is probably the way to go, so now I need to buy a 3/4" tap. And hopefully I can tap it without having to remove it from the shaft...

Offline Nolatoolguy

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2016, 08:54:13 PM »
Great progress your making, love the updates.

I was was thinking if jb fails perhaps try building it up with welds. I know Lincoln makes speciltiy rods for repairing cast iron pits an cracks
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 08:57:29 PM by Nolatoolguy »
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where at least I know I'm free.
And I won't forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
~Lee Greenwood

Offline Twilight Fenrir

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2016, 05:12:38 AM »
Great progress your making, love the updates.

I was was thinking if jb fails perhaps try building it up with welds. I know Lincoln makes speciltiy rods for repairing cast iron pits an cracks
Thabks for following n.n

Yep, I've used nickel mig wire in the past to repair my forge blower. In my experience,  it works well, but it's a little tricky, as you have to work very small areas at a time or the cast starts to crumble. The rods are basically the same thing. That probably is my next resort, I'm just leary of causing more damage than good, plus, it would be very difficult to grind a smooth surface in that tight dovetail. Hence starting with the easy thing, and I'll turn gradually more difficult as necessary...

I do appreciate the suggestion though, thank you!
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 05:14:28 AM by Twilight Fenrir »

Offline lazyassforge

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Re: Stop.... It's hammer time: New power hammer!
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2016, 05:59:03 AM »
Fenrir,

I have in the past used a router with a board mounted in place of the base to give more area and a mounted wheel(like you get in the harbor freight die grinders) with a flat bottom to sit on top of the hammer base and grind back and forth to smooth the bottom of the dovetail out. It is very slow and tedius work but it does clean it up pretty well. I have not tried JB weld so I can't say about it.

Im not sure about the pin in the helve but I think there shoould be something to hold it in place!

Bill D.