Author Topic: chisels and gouges needed  (Read 2695 times)

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Offline Branson

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chisels and gouges needed
« on: June 18, 2011, 07:18:02 AM »
About a year ago, the chisel roll and mallet walked away from the Artificers' tools.  I've found a replacement for the mallet, and one of the chisels.  We're still looking for 1860's appropriate:

Framing gouges, 1 inch and 1 1/2 inch.
Framing chisels, 1 inch and 2 inch.
Firmer chisel, 3/4 inch.

I really regret the loss of the framing chisels, as we had a matched pair of Witherby framers.
The gouges were hard to find, too.  All these are socket chisels.  We need to replace them.
I'll be checking tomorrow with a tool dealer, but if anyone has any of these...

Offline scottg

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Re: chisels and gouges needed
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2011, 04:08:38 PM »
Whitherby is hardly age appropriate for 1860. It would have been Winstead tool back then unless I am mistaken. Sockets were just coming in, so sockets are barely ok. 
 If you'd said 1850, most all tools would have been tang.

 The terms framing and firmer are somewhat subject to interpretation. I know what I mean when I say it, buy many other don't really know.
 How long were the blades? How thick in cross section? Were the chisels beveled or straight sides? Were the gouges incannel or out? 
   
  What kind of quality are you looking for?
 Screaming mint, full length polished, with original handle and the original lacquer shiny clean, is going to cost serious money. 

 I have a decent 1" chisel you can fix up and will be a great user, you can have for free, as long as you pay postage. (5" below the shoulder (had 6 originally). No handle.)

  I can contract to secure and make the tools you need, for less than you will get strict originals from Martin
 http://www.mjdtools.com/
   yours Scott

 

Offline rusty

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Re: chisels and gouges needed
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2011, 04:23:00 PM »
Just for the folks who are scratching their heads:http://galootcentral.com/membersites/brianwelch/witherby/index.htm
Just a weathered light rust/WD40 mix patina.

Offline scottg

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Re: chisels and gouges needed
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2011, 04:41:55 PM »
Just for the folks who are scratching their heads:http://galootcentral.com/membersites/brianwelch/witherby/index.htm

Wow! I didn't know Brian was working on this!! Way cool!!!! More than I knew in the first few paragraphs!!!
Brian was a super newbie just a few years ago, and did a huge research job on one of the other toolmakers, already.
Now this!!
 Major cool.
 yours Scott

Offline fliffy42

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Re: chisels and gouges needed
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2011, 04:50:15 PM »
Just for the folks who are scratching their heads:http://galootcentral.com/membersites/brianwelch/witherby/index.htm

Wow! I didn't know Brian was working on this!! Way cool!!!! More than I knew in the first few paragraphs!!!
Brian was a super newbie just a few years ago, and did a huge research job on one of the other toolmakers, already.
Now this!!
 Major cool.
 yours Scott

I agree! Nice sire. Lots of cool info! Thanks for the link Rusty!
Looking for Bluepoint X & XD Series Box Wrenches

Offline Branson

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Re: chisels and gouges needed
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2011, 08:33:29 AM »
>Whitherby is hardly age appropriate for 1860. It would have been Winstead tool back then unless I am mistaken.

The maker isn't so important as the accurate style of the tools.  If I find an original, I will, of course, choose and use it.  I have three planes stamped 1863 US Ordnance.  We also have tools we have made according to measured drawings, and had a couple others made -- the riveting hammer and the tool for setting the groove in horseshoes. 

>Sockets were just coming in, so sockets are barely ok.    If you'd said 1850, most all tools would have been tang.

Um... Actually not so.  Moxon illustrates a socket chisel in his Mechanics Exercises, published in 1703.  Thomas Martin illustrates them in 1813, and Peter Nicholson illustrates them in 1832. (see attachments)

> The terms framing and firmer are somewhat subject to interpretation. I know what I mean when I say it, buy many other don't really know.

Ain't it the truth! 

> How long were the blades? How thick in cross section? Were the chisels beveled or straight sides?

This information was not given in any of the documents at my disposal.  Length would, I think, be around 7 inches.  Thickness... Well, framers would be thicker than firmers...

>Were the gouges incannel or out? 

For framing, outcannel would be most appropriate,
   
> What kind of quality are you looking for?

Sound, working tool.  They should look like they have had some use.  And they *will* be used.  We don't do static display.
 
> I have a decent 1" chisel you can fix up and will be a great user, you can have for free, as long as you pay postage. (5" below the shoulder (had 6 originally). No handle.)

I'd be delighted!  Thank you.  We can work out the details with a PM.


 

Offline Branson

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Re: chisels and gouges needed
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2011, 07:40:57 AM »
> How long were the blades? How thick in cross section? Were the chisels beveled or straight sides?

I've attached pictures of a tool roll and chisels as specified by the 1895 regs.  These are all described
in the manual as framing chisels.  The 1" chisel is the only one that has beveled edges, and I believe
it must be a replacement.  The top and bottom chisels in the full picture show what the original length
would have been.

Offline scottg

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Re: chisels and gouges needed
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2011, 10:15:17 AM »

 

 Where are you physically?
 Summer is here and there will be tool meets across the country.
 Chisels such as these can be obtained by the wheelbarrow at any tool meet.
 Or rather chisels very much like this.
  Single gouges too. People collect sets in mint condition and matching sets bring high dollars, but single orphans especially in the "even sizes" and not shiny mint? Often go cheap.   
  Check the events calendar.
http://mwtca.org/
http://www.eaiainfo.org/

   The roll will have to be made, it looks like.  It doesn't look like any of the standard patterns still being made and finding another just like it will be hard. There are plenty of patterns of chisel roll available just not this exact, looks like an Army pattern maybe?
 If you wanted faithful replicas of the handles, those might need to be made too. 
 There are lots and plenty of otherwise suitable leather capped handles, but maybe not exact copies?   

I am not understanding.
  To my eye the only chisel you are going to have any trouble at all replacing is the super long 1" chisel.  The rest, in this condition, seem common as dishwater. 

  The top chisel in your pic I would call a socket paring chisel. It appears to have the mini bevels along the sides common in this pattern.  It does look like 7" of usable blade.
 Next is a standard beveled bench chisel. 5" of blade
   Next, bench or firmer chisel.  4" of usable blade remaining would be no trouble in a 2" chisel
 And last, a true framing chisel.  The harder one to get.
 Underhill and others made chisels this long in this width, but the sockets are bigger and the blade much thicker.  Shipwright chisels with beer mug sockets, they are often called. This one looks like a framer alright. But 1" framers are less common than wider framers.

 I guess am still unsure of the request here.
  Was there something extra special about these particular chisels I am missing?
 Seems like most could have been rounded up in a trip to any good swap meet and a casual circuit perusal of the antique shops in the area, last weekend.
   You'd have been done by now? They might have gouged you on the price some, but you'd have them.
        yours Scott

Offline Branson

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Re: chisels and gouges needed
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 05:55:27 AM »
> Where are you physically?

I'm out here on the Left Coast, in Sacramento, CA.

> Summer is here and there will be tool meets across the country.

Just thought I'd check here, first.
 
> The roll will have to be made, it looks like.  It doesn't look like any of the standard patterns still being made and finding another just like it will be hard. There are plenty of patterns of chisel roll available just not this exact, looks like an Army pattern maybe?

It's the pattern used by 1895.  There's no record of the rolls for the Civil War, but we'll be making one once we have the chisels, just using
white canvas. 

> If you wanted faithful replicas of the handles, those might need to be made too. 
 There are lots and plenty of otherwise suitable leather capped handles, but maybe not exact copies?   

The handles aren't much of a concern.  If I find one marked US, from the period, and have reason to
believe it is not a replacement, I'll try to duplicate it, maybe. 

> To my eye the only chisel you are going to have any trouble at all replacing is the super long 1" chisel.  The rest, in this condition, seem common as dishwater. 

Not quite so common here, though I haven't  seen a tool swap in many a year.  The last EAI swap I went to was in about 1986. 

>  The top chisel in your pic I would call a socket paring chisel. It appears to have the mini bevels along the sides common in this pattern.  It does look like 7" of usable blade.

LOL.  The Army called it a framing chisel.  All of these are listed as "framing chisels" in the 1895 regs.
 
> I guess am still unsure of the request here.   Was there something extra special about these particular chisels I am missing?

Just that they were stolen and need to be replaced.   I did find the 1 1/2" firmer at my favorite antique store (specializes in woodworking and
blacksmithing tools), and the owner has been looking for the rest for the past year, but no other finds yet.  I did pick up a D.R. Barton 1 inch
gouge from him last weekend, but I'm keeping it for myself (love Bartons).   It will serve for reenactments the rest of the year, but it stays with
me.

>Seems like most could have been rounded up in a trip to any good swap meet and a casual circuit perusal of the antique shops in the area, last weekend.

No luck last weekend, except for the Barton.  The missing set was purchased over a year's time, mostly on eBay, back in 2002.