Author Topic: Lock cylinder  (Read 2443 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 1930

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
Lock cylinder
« on: February 03, 2013, 10:13:35 AM »
Does anyone know anything about removing old lock cylinders, I have a bit of experience but would like to get some opinions, this is part of the spare tire lock for my 29 DB.

The cylinder in itself is a spare I purchased quite a few years ago because it had what I am pretty sure is the correct original style key.

Looking over the lock mechanism I cannot see any way that the cylinder itself might be removed except to drill out what appears to be a brass drift pin than I am guessing maybe goes all the way down into the groove that can be seen on the lock cylinder.

Seems like their should be an easier way!! Is this or was this common practice back then? I have circled the brass pin. Thanks

Oh yeah, if anyone has a thorough explanation of JL numbers or IM numbers other than simply indicators for identifying various key blanks than that would be appreciated as well. Cannot find anything on the net.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 10:15:39 AM by 1930 »
Always looking for what interests me, anything early Dodge Brothers/Graham Brothers trucks ( pre 1932 or so ) and slant six / Super six parts.

Offline rusty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4345
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 10:33:56 AM »

That's sorta funny, it's the exact same cylinder they used to use in alarmed door exits...

Nope, sorry, get the drill out, later designs had a pin that released with the key in the unlocked position, but the old way was just to drive a pin in (the pin is often the same as a cylinder pin used in the cylinder)

> JL numbers

Don't know about that series particularly, but *some* of the 3 digit key numbers correspond to the depth of each notch in the key (digit per notch), and match settings on a key machine. Later numbers are meaningless without a book that tells you what number goes with what key pattern...

PS: The cylinder is brass also, so drill slowly, only down to the edge of the cylinder ridge, the rest of the pin will come out with the cylinder if you do it just right...

Just a weathered light rust/WD40 mix patina.

Offline 1930

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 11:01:26 AM »
One more Rusty before I read your reply, maybe I can catch you before you log off ( if you ever do :) )

Door handle lock cylinder, I have thoroughly looked over the cylinder, I cannot find any key code anywhere on it, as you can see the key is marked C437, I am trying to determine if it the original key for the cylinder or is it one I made work a few years ago by fuddling around with the tumblers.

Pretty sure it is original but would like to find that darn code on the cylinder.

Theres another one C?????437
Always looking for what interests me, anything early Dodge Brothers/Graham Brothers trucks ( pre 1932 or so ) and slant six / Super six parts.

Offline eddie hudson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3619
  • NYC
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 03:28:46 PM »
Did you try depressing the brass pin with a paper clip in each key position?
 
My automotive lock code books are all packed away but I think early Chryslers used a Yale lock while late 30's used Briggs & Strattan. Your tire lock looks like a Yale and the others look like B&S. As far as I know, only the keys are stamped with the codes.
 
If you are looking for original key blanks try looking in Hemmings for Jessers Keys. He ain't cheap but he probably has what you want.

Offline 1930

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 04:35:38 PM »
Thanks yes this is definitely a pin that will not depress, early D.B used B.S ignition, that tire lock is B.S and I am assuming but have not confirmed yet that the doors used that as well.

Cylinders are marked with the codes as well for my particular application

Not looking for key blanks, at this point I am trying to determine what JL and IM are referring too within my early key literature.

Always looking for what interests me, anything early Dodge Brothers/Graham Brothers trucks ( pre 1932 or so ) and slant six / Super six parts.

Offline rusty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4345
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 06:15:13 PM »

JL is a keyway identifier, it refers to the slot pattern in the side of the key, so yes, it's going to be the same on all blanks that actully fit into the lock slot.

Dummo about IM/1M ...

(JA thru JD, JL,JM and some other J numbers  are keyway patterns for simple lock cylinders, they are also non patented keyways (eg, you can get them copied)

'MLx' keyways were usually patented (Master Locksmith) so nobody would copy the keys who wasn't supposed to...

Just a weathered light rust/WD40 mix patina.

Offline 1930

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 07:52:00 PM »

JL is a keyway identifier, it refers to the slot pattern in the side of the key, so yes, it's going to be the same on all blanks that actully fit into the lock slot.

Dummo about IM/1M ...

(JA thru JD, JL,JM and some other J numbers  are keyway patterns for simple lock cylinders, they are also non patented keyways (eg, you can get them copied)

'MLx' keyways were usually patented (Master Locksmith) so nobody would copy the keys who wasn't supposed to...
Rusty, where can I read/have documentation about this JL lingo, much appreciated.

Here is what I am up against. Maybe you or someone else will have further comments. If no-one can help than at least I gave it a shot, I have signed up within a locksmith forum and at least the post will already be made up to submit over their via copy and paste.

1929/1930 ( just for a referance point, not solely these particular years only ) Dodge auto and truck originally used a Northeast ignition assy, coil mounted behind the N.E lock cylinder.  

Disregard the keys in this particular next picture, I made these keys work by shuffling around tumblers. These round headed keys were not original for this cylinder



We have been re-searching the correct style keys that would have been used originally. Correct style key-heads.

The only listing I can find that really gives any sort of identifier for these keys is within my D.B master buyers guide dated 1932    which shows    series DA, DD, DE .DF, DC, DH, DI, DJ, DG, DB as using ignition switch key series JL 750 - JL 999.

Granted none of these particular models are trucks, they are all autos but in this particular instance at least the autos and trucks used the same ignition units albeit I am not assuming that the trucks stayed within the JL switch key series that I have posted above.

Here is where the confusion come in though.....if one were to remove these ignition cylinders from their housings they will find them all marked with an IM # at the very tip of the lock cylinder.

Not only are the lock cylinders marked IM but in at least this particular case

so is the what I am assuming at this point original key head.

The only other indicator of this key head being correct and original for these units is within what I am assuming is an artists rendering       found in a United Motors section of this N.E. electric book I have   lower left coil # 5023130

We have collected a couple of early Reed key books and on this page about 3/4 of the way down they are showing the IM series   of the keys that are being found on our key heads and cylinders. Unfortunately the 42107 key blank to be used code is referencing a key with a round head.

I am sure that the publishers of Reed do not give a hoot about documenting the correct original key blank, I am nearly positive that they have come up with a key that had the same slot pattern as the original and was more abundant ergo the round head versus the original ( in my opinion ) hex head but I am trying to prove my theory so hopefully now unless you are thoroughly confused you will understand why I ask where I might be able to see some sort of documentation toward .............JL is a keyway identifier, it refers to the slot pattern in the side of the key.............and if anyone can help on the I.M definition it would be most beneficial.


« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:57:32 PM by 1930 »
Always looking for what interests me, anything early Dodge Brothers/Graham Brothers trucks ( pre 1932 or so ) and slant six / Super six parts.

Offline 1930

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 05:23:38 AM »

JL is a keyway identifier, it refers to the slot pattern in the side of the key, so yes, it's going to be the same on all blanks that actully fit into the lock slot.

Dummo about IM/1M ...

(JA thru JD, JL,JM and some other J numbers  are keyway patterns for simple lock cylinders, they are also non patented keyways (eg, you can get them copied)

'MLx' keyways were usually patented (Master Locksmith) so nobody would copy the keys who wasn't supposed to...

Rusty I am having no luck so far, can you tell me how you know these things, are you referencing these off the web, ( as far as I think you are a glass man and not a locksmith ) if you are seeing this  on the web can you give me the website address or a point of reference for the material you mentioned within this post.

I am having a tough time finding the correct keywords to google to come up with any piece of information that even comes close to what you have mentioned above. Thanks
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:39:06 AM by 1930 »
Always looking for what interests me, anything early Dodge Brothers/Graham Brothers trucks ( pre 1932 or so ) and slant six / Super six parts.

Offline 1930

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 05:31:47 AM »
Here are some examples, the first two are the same key front and back, see the JL number ( ? )  bottom keys show the IM and then a number, I have always felt that the IM and the JL were referencing the very same thing and your post ( that I am trying to get further clarification from ) and some other material I am working with pretty much solidify this but I am still looking for further proof/clarification more details on all of this. Something that mentions the IM number along with JL # would be very nice.

Reeds key book show the IM blank and the JL blank to be the very same # of 42107

Also notice the other key dangling from the last/bottom picture ( ? ) it has a C 437 on it. It is very nearly the same key as the others and yet not quite the same, I am assuming at this point that again this is another key stock or variation of a blank but again I am looking for further proof/clarification of this.

Thanks
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:45:35 AM by 1930 »
Always looking for what interests me, anything early Dodge Brothers/Graham Brothers trucks ( pre 1932 or so ) and slant six / Super six parts.

Offline rusty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4345
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 06:32:51 PM »
You have somewhat gone past what little I know about old locks ;P


Briggs & Stratton's padlock/auto lock section  became
 strattec, and they are still around,

http://www.strattec.com/corp_history.html

May be worth an email....

All i could find that is close from the tables is this:
(These numbers are application coded , for what they are
 used for, everyone gets the same key pattern, dang, I wish
 I had known there was a master key for pepsi machines when
 I was younger ;P)

IM712 SINGLE SIDED KEY
The IM712 single sided key is common to Cole Hersee,
 Hudson Lock 5 Wafer, Bauer, Eberhard, Southco,
 Yale Lock and A.L. Hanson and old Pepsi Machine...

 
JL938 Key Single Sided
   BASCO FRAIM BRIGGS STRATTON. This uses an ILCO B-24 key blank
    / key way


JO473 SINGLE SIDED KEY
The JO473 single sided key is common to Cole Hersee,
  Hudson Lock 5 Wafer, Bauer, Eberhard, Southco,
  Yale Lock and A.L. Hanson and old Pepsi Machine...


(Mostly this tells me that JL was probably a B&S key, and IM probably wasn't)


You could also try asking here, if you are brave, don't post where you live tho: http://www.lockpicking101.com/
(These folks know a lot of really obscure things)
Just a weathered light rust/WD40 mix patina.

Offline 1930

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 06:48:06 PM »
Thanks Rusty, that is the forum I have been working with still.
Always looking for what interests me, anything early Dodge Brothers/Graham Brothers trucks ( pre 1932 or so ) and slant six / Super six parts.

Offline rusty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4345
Re: Lock cylinder
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 06:54:18 PM »
PS: They key blank seems to be RB1 , which is obsolete and cross references to various keys with other head shapes...
Just a weathered light rust/WD40 mix patina.