Author Topic: Hand Planes  (Read 148270 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline lptools

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #885 on: January 22, 2019, 05:34:27 PM »
Hello, papadan. We have a similar sharpener, different maker, in our shop at work, gets the job done. Regards, Lou
Member of PHARTS-  Perfect Handle Admiration, Restoration and Torturing Society

Offline Jim C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #886 on: February 04, 2019, 04:01:32 PM »
You've heard me say more than once that I'm attracted to odd ball planes, and those that exhibit a high level creativity and/or "contraptionism."  While I like them from a collector's perspective, it's still my opinion that those tools frequently provide more promise than actual results. What I've found is that in an effort to deliver a plane that accomplishes multiple functions, something suffers.  Typically it's the finished work product, user friendliness, ergonomics, or some combination of the three.  Well, I have another example to show you today.  Way back in the thread on page 22, reply 318 (I'm so glad I kept up with that thread index), we discussed the Stanley #79 side rabbet plane.  If you go back and review that post, you'll recall that a side rabbet plane was designed to be a precision tool that will take a fine shaving from the sides/shoulders of rabbets, grooves and dados.  Set for a light pass, side rabbet planes will fine tune a joint just a whisper at a time making little adjustments that provide a perfect fitting union between two workpieces.  It's a tool that a fine furniture and/or cabinet maker might use.  Recognizing the utility of such a plane, other manufacturers besides Stanley made what they thought were "better mousetrap" versions.

Sargent #81:

This is a unique little plane.  If you've been following the thread, just looking at it, you can see why I'm attracted to this plane.  Its very design incorporates a certain level of creative imagination.  With its crisscrossing irons, the plane was designed to cut in both directions.  Unlike the Stanley #79 however, which was also designed to cut in both directions, but dragged its non-cutting iron across the workpiece thus distorting its cutting accuracy, the Sargent #81 takes the non-cutting iron out of the rabbet/groove/dado and places it on top of the plane...... right where the user's hand would grasp the plane while pushing it through a cut.  By flipping the plane one hundred and eighty degrees, the non-cutting iron would now engage the workpiece allowing the user to push the plane in the opposite direction along the same shoulder of the rabbet/groove/dado.......and again placing a sharp iron immediately beneath the user's hand.  Cutting in both directions with the same plane seems like a convenience, but if you recall, with the Stanley #79, better accuracy would be achieved by retracting the non-cutting iron beyond the main body of the plane.  To cut in the opposite direction, the iron would then have to be readjusted past the body of the plane to re-engage the workpiece.  That's not really convenient in my opinion.  Well, Sargent came up with a "better" idea.  By putting one iron above the other, thus taking the non-cutting iron out of the rabbet/groove/dado, it (the non-cutting iron) did not need to be retracted.  Convenient?  I guess so.  Safe?  Maybe not so much.  While the Sargent #81 gets high marks for convenience (and contraptionism), ergonomics and user friendliness are questionable.  What I've found is that a side rabbet that cuts in one direction, like the Stanley #98 and #99 (both of which we'll get to), might be the best option in terms of convenience, ergonomics/safety and results delivered.  Sometimes less is more.

Sargent produced the #81 between 1913 and 1943.  The plane depicted below is an earlier version, likely manufactured prior to about 1924.  What you may have noticed is that the nose piece is removable, allowing the user to get all the way into the corner of a joint......further exposing the non-cutting iron on the top of the plane.  Yikes!!  Who thought that was a good idea?  The nose piece has a little bullnose protrusion on either side.  Those little extensions are fragile and frequently cracked off.  Like so many specialty planes, its parts are unique to the plane itself.  The nosepiece (and its accompanying screw) and the little iron clamp casting are tough to find if they're missing.  Those parts can be expensive.  If its missing parts, think twice before buying a #81 for your collection.  Finally, if you do acquire a #81, and can't resist giving it a try, please be extra careful! 

Jim C.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 07:28:30 PM by Jim C. »
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline lptools

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #887 on: February 04, 2019, 04:12:26 PM »
Hello, Jim. Great post, I can see why you like that little plane!!!! I will keep a lookout for one of those, but I have yet to see one around here. Did the deluxe version come with Band-aids? Regards, Lou
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 04:14:15 PM by lptools »
Member of PHARTS-  Perfect Handle Admiration, Restoration and Torturing Society

Offline Jim C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #888 on: February 04, 2019, 06:46:51 PM »
Hey Lou,

Thanks for checking in.  The Sargent #81 is a nice little plane, mostly to collect.  I’m pretty sure that with a super sharp iron and set for a light pass, it will do a nice job of adjusting a rabbet/groove/dado joint.  I’ll probably never really know for sure because I’m hesitant to use it for the reasons stated above.

In terms of rarity, it’s not a plane that I can recall ever seeing at a garage sale or flea market, but it does show up at tool swap meets and online auctions now and then.  If you add one to your collection, keep the Band-Aids handy!

Jim C.
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline p_toad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #889 on: February 04, 2019, 10:04:47 PM »
I think i've about maxed out my blood donations to work projects and tools.   :grin:

Nice little plane even if impractical?   :tongue:

Thanks

Offline Jim C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #890 on: February 05, 2019, 06:09:00 AM »
Peter,

I remember when I bought that plane back in 2004.  When I got it, I fully intended to use it.  As you can see, it’s in reallly nicer “user” condition.  I had a little cabinet I was planning to make and thought it would be perfect for the project.  Well, I guess the excitement of finding a cool little plane and having it in my hands blocked out my critical assessment of its user friendliness.  A couple weeks later when the time came to use it, I decided I’d sharpen the irons.  I took off the nose piece and practiced putting the plane into a practice dado I had already cut on a scrap piece of cherry.  When I got the plane into position, I looked at where my hand and fingers comfortably and naturally grasped the plane and immediately realized that had the top (non cutting) iron been super sharp, I would have given myself a nasty cut if I had attempted to push the plane forward.  It’s just not a user friendly plane.  As far as collectibility, well, it’s right up my alley!

Jim C.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 06:11:17 AM by Jim C. »
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline coolford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
  • Old as dirt
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #891 on: February 05, 2019, 06:41:44 AM »
Hey Jim---Interesting, have never seen one and if I had, I would have thought it broken or missing parts.  But, you just don't know how to use it---You are supposed to wear a heavy leather glove!!----Charles

Offline Bill Houghton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #892 on: February 05, 2019, 10:10:19 AM »
Interesting that you found the Sargent #81 so awkward/hazardous.  Record issued much the same plane for years, and Lee Valley adopted/adapted the design for their side rabbet: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=60012&cat=1,230,41182,48945.  I note that the Lee Valley model has a fence, which may provide some protection for the user, or at least may discourage fingers getting too close.

I'll likely never find out, since I have all three Stanley side rabbets (79, 98, 99).

Offline Jim C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #893 on: February 05, 2019, 02:50:36 PM »
Hey Jim---Interesting, have never seen one and if I had, I would have thought it broken or missing parts.  But, you just don't know how to use it---You are supposed to wear a heavy leather glove!!----Charles

Hmmmm.... heavy leather gloves.  Why didn’t I think of that?
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline Jim C.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 862
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #894 on: February 05, 2019, 03:05:58 PM »
Interesting that you found the Sargent #81 so awkward/hazardous.  Record issued much the same plane for years, and Lee Valley adopted/adapted the design for their side rabbet: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=60012&cat=1,230,41182,48945.  I note that the Lee Valley model has a fence, which may provide some protection for the user, or at least may discourage fingers getting too close.

I'll likely never find out, since I have all three Stanley side rabbets (79, 98, 99).

Hey Bill,

Sargent offered the plane for thirty years!  I don’t necessarily think that longevity always equates to a good idea.  When I handled the #81 to use, for some reason my index finger just gravitated to the top of the plane where it would encounter the front edge of the exposed non cutting iron if the nose piece was removed, or the little extensions on the nose piece, with the non cutting iron exposed through the bottom of the plane.  In order for me to comfortably grasp the plane, my index finger naturally wanted to be on top of the plane pressing into the non cutting iron area of the plane.  Maybe I was holding it incorrectly?  Checking your link to Lee Valley, I noticed that the handle on the Veritas version appears to be more ergonomic.  Maybe that would help matters.  I also noticed that the Veritas model has a depth stop.  That might help stabilize the plane while it’s being pushed forward.  That coupled with the better handle might cause the user to hold the plane in a different (safer) manner.  As for the Sargent original, well, I think it’s better as a collectible.  I’m ultimately with you.  If I have to use a side rabbet plane, my first choice would be a Stanley #98 and/or #99. 

Jim C.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 05:39:37 AM by Jim C. »
Our Go-To Type Study Member

Offline coolford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
  • Old as dirt
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #895 on: February 06, 2019, 02:57:16 PM »
On to a different subject, I pulled a No. 5 plane out of my pile to clean up.  It has a grooved bottom and a large No. 5 is on the toe (larger than a Stanley No. 5).  No other markings except the iron is marked T. H. Co. where the T is above the H but runs through it and the bottom of the H legs are circled by c on one and o on the other (co). I don't get anywhere on line.  Has anyone run into anything on T. H. Co. planes?  No picture of the iron as the image is to faint to show.

Offline lptools

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1948
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #896 on: February 06, 2019, 03:51:37 PM »
Hello, Coolford. Could it be read H.T. Co. ?  Possibly "Hartford Tool Co."  Regards, Lou
Member of PHARTS-  Perfect Handle Admiration, Restoration and Torturing Society

Offline coolford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
  • Old as dirt
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #897 on: February 06, 2019, 04:20:30 PM »
Lou----you nailed it, I was reading it bass ackwards.  Instead of T. H. Co. it is H. T. Co and it is definitely Hartford Tool Co. as I went on e-bay and matched the mark to an iron for sale.  The question remains, it the entire plane Hartford Tool Co.  I noticed there were not many Hartford Tool Co. planes for sale, will have to look from time to see if mine shows up.----Charles

Offline coolford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
  • Old as dirt
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #898 on: February 16, 2019, 03:10:10 PM »
Okay, I collect anything, and this junk, rusty plane is an example.  Here it is cleaned up, a Shelton block plane pat. pend.  First one I have come across.  Has an adjustable blade, so you can loosen the top clamp and adjust the blade without removing the clamp.  It is made of pressed steel.

Offline Bill Houghton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #899 on: February 16, 2019, 04:47:26 PM »
That Shelton's pretty cool.  So to speak.