Tool Talk
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: skipskip on February 10, 2014, 11:23:56 PM
-
It's often hard form the inside to see where you stand in the big picture.
This is a post from frank Murch on the snap-on collectors site dated October 2011
Frank runs a good site and I value his opinions.
Collecting vintage tools is not as defined as other collections. It is still a bunch of guys who share an interest. Maybe someday it will be an "industry", but not today - My guess is there are 6 to 10 hard core collectors, another few hundred (maybe even a couple thousand) doing it to a lesser degree and a bunch that are interested and have some tools. Compare that to stamp collecting where every kid had a collection and there are thousands of serious collectors
I agree with frank, tho I suspect the numbers have changed a bit since 2011.
And I don't exactly know how he defines "hard core"
any one want to venture a guess on the size of the hobby?
or
it's stage of development?
Skip
-
I think both numbers are low. I'm sure there are more than 5 or 6 hardcore collectors judging by the auctions that take place around the country. Surely there are many more than a thousand serious collectors judging by the attendance at those auctions and the participation in the auctions, let alone online buyers and sellers.
-
It depends on what you define "hard core" as.
If one out of every 313 people were tool collectors in the USA, then there are one million of us. (1/3 of 1% only) (US population is ~313 million.) If there is one hard core collecter per thousand regular collectors, there would be 1,000 hard core collectors. I spend 6 or 7 thousand on tools every year 75% new, 25% vintage I would think. It's easy when hammers cost $46 to $115, and stakes not much less up to considerably more than hammers. I am not even hard core by my definition of the word, I am a user collector (but I can afford a lot of higher quality tools, even redundant tools or specialized tools) BTW - I do not use anything mire than office tools to make my living for the last 27 years.
I've seen more than 50 or 60 "hard core" collectors. I am sure there are more tool collecters, or those that want to be, than stamp collectors (a dying group.) If you measure by collection value (or amount of product in collections) I think tools is up there, primarily because tools cost a lot. Most car collectors have a collection of vintage tools also. Gas pumps are hard to get ahold of, and they were on every corner.
Stamp collecting is suffering. Millions bought sheets of stamps, expecting them to increase in value. So much is out there that you can buy stamos printed since the 1930's for 50% - 30% of face value. They are still legal to use as postage, or to pay for postage. Philately peaked sometime in the 1940's. They actually lost a ton in value.
Generally speaking I think used tools hold their value. New tools lose value when first bought, generally. If you put forth a modest effort I think you can buy used tools well below their future resale value.
Chilly
-
Stamps, coins, tools, baseball cards.
Good stuff always gets better, cheap stuff will always be cheap.
-
I'm not rich enough to be hard core, but my bank acount would make a strong cae for it.....lol
I'd be classed as a bottom feeder at auctions and have the ability to quit when things get too expensive. I actually attended 3 straight auctions within the last month and bid on a few things, but went away empty handed each time.....and didn't whine or complain. Know when to hold 'e, know when to fold 'em sorta mentality. If evlerybody at the auctions had the same mentality as I do, the auctioneer would go broke......
DM&FS
-
Since I grew up around coin collecting and I collect many things (not coins) I have some traditional perspective on the strength of a collecting hobby.
Since I live in the middle of nowhere I don't get to actually see, so all I can do is ask pertinent questions that you guys in the population centers have to answer.
Clubs? How many wrench collector clubs are there?
Clubs are always first. The strength of clubs and their number is the foundation of any collecting hobby. When there are only a handful of serious collectors one national club soon appears. As more members come in, eventually regional clubs spring up, and those regions can splinter off into state and then smaller and smaller into city clubs or even small town clubs if a hobby grows large enough.
As more and more clubs are born eventually a national club will form.
Auctioneers? Are there specialty auctioneers who sell mechanic tools exclusively?
How many general auctioneers sell tools in specialty "wrench only" auctions and how often?
Newsletters?? Clubs bring newsletters. Newsletters tend to stay around, and travel. Newsletters add legitimacy to a hobby.
Specialty shows? How many "wrenches only", or predominantly mechanics tools shows are there? How large are the shows?
Established hobbies have a show every year in every general area. Some places only support 15 or 20 tables at an old Elks Hall. (15 or 20 expert collector tables in the collecting specialty you prefer, is like going to 700 swap meets and 1100 antique shops in a few steps. A collectors first show is practically a physical blow)
Some collector shows take over the county fairgrounds with hundreds of sales tables and breathtaking displays of advanced collections for all to view. Awards and banquets and sometimes auctions of high value goods accompany them.
{Example : Nearly 50% of American states have an antique bottle show in a given year. There are about 20 shows a year in England and 8 shows a year in Australia.}
Magazines? When newsletters aren't enough to satisfy widespread demand, nationally distributed magazines will appear.
Conventions? Even sporadically widespread collector groups like the infant feeder and inkwell society have a yearly convention somewhere.
This changes locations every time so different sections can be serviced.
The baby bottle people ride in on buses or old pickup trucks, and the inkwell people fly in first class and a chauffeur picks them up. It just all depends.
Expositions Once in 4 years in some hobbies the grand expo will happen. These happen in the downtown convention centers of major cities with a huge riotious exciting hobby show lasting for days straight, with everything a collector could possibly want.
Not only do people save up the best they have for sale for years to take to an Expo, there is always an associated auction of the highest value goods of all.
Expo is "seeing the elephant". A collector will never be the same.
Traditionally books, both frivolous and serious research volumes come aboard any collecting hobby. In wrench collecting we have the AA website, which is the same thing. Only problem with that is, a book will last until its burned or soaked. Once printed a book can march down though time to appear again in another generation or even generations later.
A website is gone at the touch of a button. Nobody much expects it to be there in 150 years.
The answers to these is where we are and where we are headed.
yours Scott
-
I think its hard cause everyone has a different definition of hardcore.
I don't consider myself to be hardcore into any tool. I collect almost any vintage or antique tool, but not hard core. If I had more money it would be a litte different.
My tools can really be broken into four categories. First I have tools for work wich are mostly new, but they sometimes overlap into the second category. Second I have the category of tools that were my grandpas and mean a lot an a few tools that are absolutely amazing to me. The third category consists of tools that I have that I like but are just ok. The fourth category is tools I have bought for one reason or another, they don't really have much appeal to me. The third an fourth category has pretty much been sold off in the need to by textbooks an gas, LOL.
There must be some people that appreciate old tools because they do sell, and some select ones sell for a pretty penny.
-
I suspect Frank must have been talking about early Snap-on collectors.
One of the "6-10 hard core collectors" is a member here...
-
Serious collector does not necessarily mean big spender.
In fact it seldom does mean the big spenders. Big spenders tend to merely buy and little more.
The truly serious ones are the ones who buckle down the do the deep research. Who write the books. The ones who start the clubs and write the newsletters.
The ones who eventually start the national clubs.
Big spenders come and go but the people who end up in the Hall of Fame do a lot more than just spend money.
yours Scott
-
Missouri Valley Wrench Club membership has "hovered" in the 400 range the last few years. The active members (at least those who make the two annual meetings ) tend to be older.
As far as printed materials; Cope's American Wrench Makers 1830-1930; P.T. Rathbone's 3 vols on Farm Implement Wrench producers; the now out-of-print 1992 "Antique & Unusual Wrenches" by my parents; earlier efforts by Marvin Wullweber, Don Snyder. Shockley's compilation of U.S. wrench patents & the more recent compilation by Steve Eckers -- which goes up to the end of 1911. 32 years worth of Missouri Valley Wrench Club newsletters; Martin Donnelly's early sale catalog devoted to wrenches.
"All wrench" auctions?? I suppose the auctions held in conjunction with the MVWC meeting could be classed as such -- Mike Urness at greatplanestrading has done a couple, along with substantial wrench offerings in most of his consigned tool auctions. The national level tool auctions conducted by Brown Auction (finetoolJ.com) and Martin Donnelly always include wrenches. Some collection dispersal sales get advertised well enough & with enough advance notice to attract more than local attention.
In my experience, many of the wrench collectors have farming or manufacturing backgrounds -- some come to it from one of the trades. As those kinds of personal experiences become more & more anachronistic, the "pool" of potential future collectors probably will shrink.
-
I agree, Stan. Just hope Tool Talk can help keep folks interested.
-
There must be more collectors out there than we think. Look at some completed auctions on ebay. I mainly look at mechanic tools but some items bring in big bids. The craftsman speeder ratchets, Round head fine tooth flex ratchets and anything NOS go big. There is a big enough tool market for some people to take the time to build fake round head fine tooth flex ratchets and try to sell them. Anything that is collectible and brings good money will have someone trying to sell fake items.
-
Anything that is collectible and brings good money will have someone trying to sell fake items.
One thing that totally blew me away last year, were the Craftsman ratchets with the handles obviously bobbed off, selling for big bucks as "prototype" close quarter ratchets.
There were 5 or 6 of them that sold right in a row.
I considered it.
Lets see, a 4 dollar ratchet and a hacksaw.
Then grind and polish the stub for 10 minutes....... = $300 ??
Good work if you can get someone else to shave your face so you don't have to look in the mirror.
yours Scott
-
There is one guy now that keeps taking the heads off of easco or kd RHFT flex ratchets and putting them on craftsman breaker bar handles. Then sells them as craftsman. The same guy was caught putting snap on hard handles on harbor freight ratchets and then selling as snap on. He was banned from GJ. Ebay doesn't seem to care about fraudulent sellers.
-
I am assuming roto head ratchets?
Snap on hard handles on Horror Freight ratchets kind of makes me laugh out loud.
But then the Snap-prissies and their eggshell fragile egos are pretty hysterical anyway.
Easco or K-D drop heads on Craftsman breakers is kind of surprising.
There are people who would pay more for Craftsman than Easco/K-D?
Isn't it the same Danahur tool with a different logo?
yours Scott
-
I'm just glad to be part of this group of guys that like old tools!! Don't think it's how much $$ or how many tools. But our love of tools, it's history, quality, feel & use of a good working tool... Thanks Papaw.. (This site is as hard core as it gets here)
FYI, I don't know of any Hard core collectors in Hawaii, we don't even have tool auctions or shows here. I think it is availability of tools, Places with lots of old farm tools, industrial revolution tools, etc. all the ancient Hawaiian tools are in museums..
-
Speaking of ancient Hawaiian tools...........
Did you see the poi pounders on antiques roadshow last year?
I was electrified!! Yowza!! How cool does it get?
yours Scott
-
there are a few guys that are resurrecting the ancient art of making stone pounders, they demonstrate for the tourist, also top sellers are Shark tooth or fish bills imbedded in Koa wood weapons, like spears, clubs, knifes, etc. but to find really old stuff is rare, family heirlooms usually stay in the family, as they believe their ancestor's spirits are connected to their items...,
-
if I may, I would like to put in my 2 cents into this topic.
I do not see the tool collecting hobby dying off anytime soon. I enjoy finding a tool and then reaearching the
use & origin. then on to the next find. it could be a wrench or even a farm tool.
one thing that I enjoy with my wrench collection is taking some of them to a small agriculture show with some
farm tools. it is satisfaction when an elderly person stops and stares at a certain tool and I ask if they have a
question about a tool, then they procede to tell me about their father, uncle or friend use a tool like that years ago, it brought back a memory for them. sometime they can even bring me up to date on a certain item.
( elderly is over 77 this year, ha-ha)
we can collect wrenches for years, and yet, not one single person will ever have one of each wrench ever made,that is a happy thought.
MVWC will grow. we just have to tell more people about their news letters and get them to join.right Stan ?
closing, all I will say is "LONG LIVE TOOL COLLECTING."
-
Had to look-up MVWC, Think it is Missouri Valley Wrench Club? had some great links to other clubs & organizations..
http://www.wrenchingnews.com/ etc..
-
Tools, old tools, will be collected, just for the curiosity and interest, but also a couple of boxes of them won't change your lifestyle. Not like having a yard full of old tractors and trucks. I started out gathering a few woodworking tools, so I could work without electricity around. Then had to expand on the farm wrenches and adjustable wrenches. One has to be somewhat brain dead not to see the ingenuity, and workmanship that goes into a tool. Often the older ones show this more, pre-computer the designer, tool-and-die man, foundry man, all had their finger in what became the final item. At farm shows, there is always a crowd gawking at the big tool displays.