Tool Talk
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Papaw on March 22, 2014, 07:53:52 PM
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Since I am known locally as a tool freak, I often get asked for ID on a tool. Sometimes it is easy. often it is not. Sometimes I bring the tool here to get ID.
Last week in the old style hardware store here in town one of the guys told me another guy had a strange tool and I should go see it. Turned out it was a fellow nearby that I have known all my life and he has a small shop just down the street from me. He often sells stuff off a trailer in his lot, but it is usually garage sale stuff only.
I stopped in today to ask about the tool he had and he dug around in his pockets until he found it. It is one of these-
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/DOQAAMXQ1d1TIk73/$_57.JPG)
I told him it is a pin vise or jeweler's vise for holding things. Discussion lead to value, so I went home and did some digging. Anywhere from $15 to $60 on Ebay depending on quality.
One is offered at $89 or so, but it has a handle that appears to be original.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/a04AAOxyf1dTHJVw/$_57.JPG?rt=nc)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/7nUAAOxyj4hTHJVq/$_57.JPG?rt=nc)
Offered on Ebay by seller theyellowgarage Ebay link- http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-tool-small-jeweler-hand-vise-clamp-ornate-good-working-condi-wide-mouth/221390342233?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.RVI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20644%26meid%3D5676304258389888098%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D9209%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D111299584042 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-tool-small-jeweler-hand-vise-clamp-ornate-good-working-condi-wide-mouth/221390342233?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.RVI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20644%26meid%3D5676304258389888098%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D9209%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D111299584042)
The one the guy down the street has is marked with a Rooster logo and the letters LHJ .
After all our discussion, the guy hands me a box full of tools that he wants me to look at and buy from him or sell for him. These will need sorting and some cleanup to see what might be worth the effort.
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Hi Pawpaw, the handle that comes out, is it pointed like an awl ?
I was thinking that it might be used in leather work, just a guess without
seeing it all.
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The one with the handle is on Ebay, but from the picture, it does look like it is pointed.
As a matter of fact, I think there was one in the box, but the owner kept it for some reason.
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If the hole punch in the box is by Osborne or as good it's worth $20 all by itself, and the handle on the screwdriver above it is beautiefull :)
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I have sold a few like the one in the top picture. I usually get 20-30 for those at flea markets/antique shows.
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If the hole punch in the box is by Osborne
There are two in there. One is marked Lasayre (Or L A SAYRE )Co. Newark NJ and is 3/4".
The other has no markings and appears to be 5/8".
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This hand vise is cuter than most.
Personally I think trying to tie it to a single trade is like trying to tie down a hammer to one trade. Jeweler cobbler tinsmith clockmaker toolmaker to say the least
Hand vise, general purpose.
I agree on the price too. Ask 30, haggle down to 20.
Personally I would pay 10 in a heartbeat. At 20 I would have to think, but I just might buy it. At a firm 30 I would walk.
If anyone can get 20 dollars apiece for arc punches I would like to sell a few?? The only time I ever paid close to that was my Dasco set, and it has about 10 of them. I got it for 15.
yours Scott
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Digging out some of the contents- There are still a bunch of small items, mostly taps and other chaff.
Cleaning will have to wait till later this week.
I did find two remarkable screwdrivers- One old wood handled and one insulated. Marked INSULATED and I see another mark on the side that I can't decipher yet.
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The screwdrivers-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3078_zpsea46a0c9.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3078_zpsea46a0c9.jpg.html)
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If the little wood screwdriver says Stanley on the ferrule, I need one for my Stanley 45.
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Doesn't seem to have any markings. I don't want to get too aggressive cleaning it.
OAL is 5 1/4", Wood is 3", shaft is 2", and the tip is 1/4".
Looks like this one on Rose Tools.
http://www.shop.roseantiquetools.net/85aa-Flathead-screwdriver-85aa.htm (http://www.shop.roseantiquetools.net/85aa-Flathead-screwdriver-85aa.htm)
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>Lasayre (Or L A SAYRE )Co. Newark NJ
From the 1880's to apparently the mid 1930's, last index entry I can find is 1934.
They made general hardware , hand tools, kitchen gadgets etc..
> If anyone can get 20 dollars apiece for arc punches
As they say...location location location
Up here they are few and far between, and the ones I come across are usually cracked, broken, or chipped past the point they can be sharpened :(
$20 may be much, but I have paid $10 for the last big one I needed (inch I think), smaller ones are cheaper, but more often worn out past repair...
It has been years since I saw a complete set...
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So, whats his deal with you on this stuff?
If he thinks you should clean it and sell it and give him 1/2 the money?
Pass it.
Cleaned and sold I am seeing maybe 10-20 bucks at best. Old files are worthless. Old tinsnips are not far behind. Only a couple/3 of the drill bits would sell for a dollar apiece. Wooden handles are cool but hardly have any value. Old chisels only have value in mint condition or fully restored and but that is not fast to do.
The strap wrench is cool but the strap is shot.
So cleaning for at least 2-3 hours and then selling for however long that takes,
for 1/2 of 20 dollars? Has you working for about 2 dollars an hour, if that.
I sometimes work cheap, but geeeeeze!
yours Scott
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I'm positive he doesn't expect much out of them, and I won't spend a lot of time on them.
Agreed the files and taps are not worth anything. Some of the handles will be useful to me.
In a few days or a week or so, I'll take him some $$ and he'll be happy.
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I like that strap wrench, I assume the strap is cotton web material. Would be handy to fit a new strap and have for turning out valves on my old Coleman lanterns (I'm thinking clamps the valve in a vise, and turning the tank with the wrench).
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Papaw, you're a good man for helping him out. Often times its not the money made on that particular deal, but the goodwill for down the road. Perhaps the days coming when he brings you something real special.
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What size is the center bit? I might be interested in it.
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Which piece? Describe it or repost the picture with an arrow to the one you are talking about. I have just about a half an hour before I hit the sack. I go to work this afternoon.
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I have a similar, if not the same strap wrench. It is a very nice tool and I've busted a lot oil filters loose with it. I used a found piece of webbing/strap to replace the original. A small bag of baseball rosin will give it some grip if it wants to slip.
Be careful using it on thin metals like a Coleman tank. It can easily cause a dent.
Al.
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I used a found piece of webbing/strap to replace the original. A small bag of baseball rosin will give it some grip if it wants to slip.
Finding strong traditional webbing is tough.
I tried seat belt material (it can be cut, folded and sewed). But it still wasn't strong enough!
Ridgid still sells webbing straps, but they cost a lot!
Then I got a tip
Modern engine serpentine drive belts work a treat. And you can get them free if you scrounge even a little.
Its what I am using on my larger strap wrenches now.
yours Scott
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Good idea Scott! The belt on my truck is due to be replaced and I can put the take-off in the spare kit and retire the used one I had saved for emergencies.
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I do not think that the Stanley screwdrivers that came with the 45s are marked very often. Can anyone else confirm this? It looks very close to one.
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I said it would be a long story! I have finally found time and energy to take a look at some more of the tools in that box.
First is a Nicholson 3 XF curved file that may have seen all the use one can get out of it. I can see only a few spots where the file is not worn off.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3592_zps1101f641.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3592_zps1101f641.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3593_zps1665262f.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3593_zps1665262f.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3591_zps94ba72f7.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3591_zps94ba72f7.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/Nicholsonmark_zpsa9597a35.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/Nicholsonmark_zpsa9597a35.jpg.html)
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Next is a mystery to me- Only marks are ST991A . 7 " long by 1" wide, curved up at the end and tapered down to a round end.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3595_zpsb9794040.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3595_zpsb9794040.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3596_zps6133d534.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3596_zps6133d534.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3594_zps367a9249.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3594_zps367a9249.jpg.html)
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Next is either a skate key or a clock key, I think. The square is smaller than 1/4", possiblt 3/16".
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3601_zps9ffeb103.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3601_zps9ffeb103.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3602_zps24600f45.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3602_zps24600f45.jpg.html)
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Last of this bunch is a flat screwdriver bit that probably fits a Yankee but not any of mine. It is slightly larger than 1/4", so might be 9/32". What does it fit?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3597_zpsf70694dd.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3597_zpsf70694dd.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3599_zps2e6b0d3e.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3599_zps2e6b0d3e.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3600_zps29755c30.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3600_zps29755c30.jpg.html)
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The Yankee screwdrivers took bits in three different diameters: 7/32", 9/32", and 5/16". The small and midsized drivers are pretty common, but the honkin' big drivers (#31 and #131) don't show up often. I've managed to acquire examples in all three sizes, but I don't use the big one much. I'd have to be doing production door installation or something like that for the big one to make sense.
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Let's look at some more-
A socket chisel, I guess for wood turning. 8 1/4" long with the socket.Five faces with a sharp angled end. The markings I can see seem to be missing one or two letters, then & (somethoing).J.White.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3611_zps43c4e2e4.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3611_zps43c4e2e4.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3617_zps7d650407.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3617_zps7d650407.jpg.html)
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Another mystery to me is this 18" long curved tool that might be a babbit tool, but with an end like a chisel or punch. It has been hammered quite a bit, but the curved section shows no damage from it.
Marked -
6 5/8-18 PLUMB (inverted triangle not U, and down arrows on each end) MADE IN U.S.A 1A
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3607_zps0a4bbd9d.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3607_zps0a4bbd9d.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3606_zpsdb578043.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3606_zpsdb578043.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3605_zps6844bd50.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3605_zps6844bd50.jpg.html)
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A long socket chisel (9") with a handle that doesn't quite fit. 1" wide, kinda sharp, but would need fettling to use.
Marked CHIP KING.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3604_zps1f6ed63c.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3604_zps1f6ed63c.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3603_zps2a2d0ac8.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3603_zps2a2d0ac8.jpg.html)
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Two hole punches.
The 3/4" one is marked L A Sayre & CO. NEWARK N.J.
The 5/8" one is not marked.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3608_zps1e588315.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3608_zps1e588315.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3609_zps5a8ca017.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3609_zps5a8ca017.jpg.html)
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Finally- for today at least- some bits from that box. I intend to keep most of these for use with a ratcheting drill and an eggbeater. I know Branson is interested in one of these, but i don't know which one.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3612_zpsaad7042a.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3612_zpsaad7042a.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/papao55/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3613_zpsb3b3cbcc.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/papao55/media/Assorted%20wrenches/IMG_3613_zpsb3b3cbcc.jpg.html)
The countersink is a KEEN KUTTER.
The 1 1/2" hole drilling bit is marked BAGSHAW & FIELD.
The little gimlet is marked M BOKER .
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Bagshaw & Field was an old Philadelphia maker of edge tools and bits going back to the 1880's at least ....
They also made those neat "handle with a lot of bits" type tools, usually in nice rosewood...
Dunno where they went, they don't appear after mid 1920's...
Edit: DATM says 1881-1931
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About that one chisel: I've never seen a turning chisel that used a socket - in fact, I think it would be dangerous to turn with a socket chisel. One catch with the resulting shock to the handle-to-chisel connection, and you could have a flying chisel. It looks like a firmer chisel. From the photo, it looks fairly narrow - 1/4" or 3/8"? Those often have rather wide lands (the side of the chisel).
The maker's not familiar, but I'm no kinda old-maker's-marks eggspert.
That one punch, with the handle off to the side, is interesting, I've seen plenty of arch punches (the other one in the picture), as have most of us; and in an arch punch, the force is centered on the hole. The side-handle punch would require some attention to make a clean hole. I wonder if it was a special-application tool?
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>The side-handle punch would require some attention to make a clean hole
It might be useful for making, say, washers, where you need to see into the punch area tho..
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The long chisel is a "near miss" with the marking stamp.
L & I J White is what is was supposed to say. This a venerable old edge tool company.
Either you shot it perfectly on edge, or its a very narrow chisel?
If its 1/4" wide or wider across the cutting edge, then its just your standard professional grade bench chisel. (all pro chisels had 6" blades).
Turning tools are always tang chisels, otherwise the tool vibrates off the handle in use, and bad thing happen.
Bench chisels get pushed or pounded so the handle lasts longer in a socket.
Bench chisels with tangs were (are) also available, but they nearly always have a bolster at the handle (a swelling of metal) so the tang can't just get driven in and split the handle.
Turning tools don't get driven, so they never have the bolster.
Bolster or no bolster is how you tell a turning tool from a bench chisel at a glance, when there are no handles and they are laying in a pile. :)
If its 1/8" wide then its a cane chisel!
Pre-woven cane was (and still is) a miracle. Just chisel out the old spline, soak the new cane for a little while in warm water, and drive it into the groove with glue and the new spline. You can re-do a chair back or seat, or both, in an hour.
But you need a long skinny chisel to clean up the groove first.
Weaving mile long strips of cane takes forever to achieve the same result.
yours Scott
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The spine is 1/8". The beveled portion is also 1/8" or near it for its whole length.
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Let's look at some more-
A socket chisel, I guess for wood turning. 8 1/4" long with the socket.Five faces with a sharp angled end. The markings I can see seem to be missing one or two letters, then & (somethoing).J.White.
L&IJ White. Premium tool maker -- great steel. It's not for turning, but is a mortise chisel. How wide is the blade?
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I said it would be a long story! I have finally found time and energy to take a look at some more of the tools in that box.
First is a Nicholson 3 XF curved file that may have seen all the use one can get out of it. I can see only a few spots where the file is not worn off.
Test some of the "worn off" places. I have a similar file -- looks like it has no teeth, but has something like diamond dust impregnating the surface.
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Let's look at some more-
A socket chisel, I guess for wood turning. 8 1/4" long with the socket.Five faces with a sharp angled end. The markings I can see seem to be missing one or two letters, then & (somethoing).J.White.
L&IJ White. Premium tool maker -- great steel. It's not for turning, but is a mortise chisel. How wide is the blade?
Not sure about the mortise chisel designation, although of course you could use it for mortises. I've got a 1/8" mortise chisel, and it gets thick (90 degrees to the width) pretty fast, with no bevels. On the other hand, I've noticed the narrow beveled firmer chisels often had those wide lands. Kind of fine distinctions, though, for chisels that narrow.
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>Not sure about the mortise chisel designation, although of course you could use it for mortises. I've got a 1/8" mortise chisel, and it gets thick (90 degrees to the width) pretty fast, with no bevels. On the other hand, I've noticed the narrow beveled firmer chisels often had those wide lands. Kind of fine distinctions, though, for chisels that narrow.
Could be that Scott is correct in calling it a cane chisel -- I've certainly used one for this work. But I've accumulated at least 4, and they feel like mortise chisels, and I've used them more often for such. Last time was cutting a mortise through a spinning wheel piece to make a slot for the leather that holds the bobbin in place.
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>Not sure about the mortise chisel designation, although of course you could use it for mortises. I've got a 1/8" mortise chisel, and it gets thick (90 degrees to the width) pretty fast, with no bevels. On the other hand, I've noticed the narrow beveled firmer chisels often had those wide lands. Kind of fine distinctions, though, for chisels that narrow.
Could be that Scott is correct in calling it a cane chisel -- I've certainly used one for this work. But I've accumulated at least 4, and they feel like mortise chisels, and I've used them more often for such. Last time was cutting a mortise through a spinning wheel piece to make a slot for the leather that holds the bobbin in place.
Well, yeah: I wasn't disagreeing with you substantively. With a chisel with that kind of ratio of thickness to width, it's something of a po-tay-to/po-tah-to thing. Cane, mortise, firmer - useful for cutting firm cane mortises!
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Chisel names are a funny thing. Whatever you call any chisel, is always right! Because in different regions of the country or world, somebody probably calls it that.
Chisels with a 6" usable blade I call a pro bench chisel. Some just call them bench chisels. Paring and mortise also come into play.
I think some of the old chisel manufacturers originally just called them chisels, and made up names for the other patterns.
Everyone has their own theory of paring chisel. There is nothing that could ever be "incorrect" in a paring chisel since every chisel can pare wood, and all of them do!
My own definition is one with at least 8" of usable blade, and very thin in cross section. Never struck, only pushed.
Ditto the word mortise chisel. You can chop a mortise with a busted off soupspoon handle and a claw hammer, and I am sure someone, somewhere, has done just that.
I once made chisels from hardened cement nails long ago. I was about 20. What'd I know? I used nails and round ball drawer pulls and some steel threaded inserts.
Even though anybody else would take one look and say ........... you could never use those!, my wife carved this from black walnut with nothing but them.
Personally I think of a mortise chisel as one that is at least 3 times thicker than it is wide, but that's just me.
yours Scott
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Scott, Do you have any photos of your home made chisels? sounds interesting!!
"I once made chisels from hardened cement nails long ago. I was about 20. What'd I know? I used nails and round ball drawer pulls and some steel threaded inserts.
Even though anybody else would take one look and say ........... you could never use those!, my wife carved this from black walnut with nothing but them."
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Scott, Do you have any photos of your home made chisels? sounds interesting!!
Sorry Partner, we are talking over 40 years ago here. I have a few tools left from that time. Couple of saws and a plane that I still use come to mind. But that's about it.
yours Scott