Tool Talk
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 1930 on March 22, 2014, 08:15:04 PM
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Can someone tell me how much baking soda is required to neutralize the rust removing vinegar solution I have had some parts laying in.
Ive had a cylinder head and an intake manifold sitting in Vinegar for a few days, I pulled out the intake and it was very clean, Vinegar worked very well but the orange came back very quickly so I need to evidently give it a Baking soda bath.
Just dont know how much baking soda to use per gallon of water?
Is it just grocery store baking soda? Nuthin special about it?
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as much as will dissolve in the water. You aren't trying to balance out the acid, you are reversing the PH, and baking soda is very weak.
Baking soda, not powder, yes, store kind.
It will still flash rush tho, it is the water as much as the acid, you need to dry it with alcohol and oil it immediately after you are done...
PS: The residue from baking soda is insoluable in water, so it'sa gonna make a mess ;P
PPS: At root temp, soluability is 94 grams per liter, 16 oz box is 454 grams...
So a box should be ok for a couple gallons...
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It will still flash rust tho, it is the water as much as the acid, you need to dry it with alcohol and oil it immediately after you are done...
Concur. I don't use baking soda, I just use lots of running water, pat dry, then hit it with lots of WD-40. But my uses for vinegar soaks are mainly small hand tools, on which this method is feasible. Larger components, it would be harder to use this approach.
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For a cylinder head or manifold I'd just take it to the car wash.
Blast the crap out of it with soap, then plain water.
Get it dry and oiled as soon as possible. Too bad it ain't July along about now.....
yours Scott
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Baking soda is a weak base, but typical vinegar is like 5% acetic acid. That's also pretty weak.
Someone told me once about spraying aerosol brake cleaner down a gun barrel after shooting corrosive (i.e acidic) ammo. He said that doing that at the range would prevent rusting for at least a day until you could "really" clean it. I've never tried it, but, maybe you have some of that aerosol in your shop?
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as much as will dissolve in the water. You aren't trying to balance out the acid, you are reversing the PH, and baking soda is very weak.
Baking soda, not powder, yes, store kind.
It will still flash rush tho, it is the water as much as the acid, you need to dry it with alcohol and oil it immediately after you are done...
PS: The residue from baking soda is insoluable in water, so it'sa gonna make a mess ;P
PPS: At root temp, soluability is 94 grams per liter, 16 oz box is 454 grams...
So a box should be ok for a couple gallons...
Thanks Rusty, I am not clear on this however.....Baking soda, not powder, yes,...........You say not powder? Baking soda is powder ?
You said...........It will still flash rush tho, it is the water as much as the acid, you need to dry it with alcohol and oil it immediately after you are done..............
Yes this is an issue I need to deal with, I was hoping that a dunk in kerosine might stop the flash rusting ( after the baking soda dip ) As you know I have water outlets, fuel runners ect that cant be just wiped down because there is no access. Dunking this stuff in some exotic mix of fluids is sorta out of the question since that would put my budget over the top so any suggestions would be welcome.
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It will still flash rust tho, it is the water as much as the acid, you need to dry it with alcohol and oil it immediately after you are done...
Concur. I don't use baking soda, I just use lots of running water, pat dry, then hit it with lots of WD-40. But my uses for vinegar soaks are mainly small hand tools, on which this method is feasible. Larger components, it would be harder to use this approach.
Thanks Bill, I dont have the ability to pat down, I am hoping that a dip in kerosine would do the trick.
I guess I could scrounge up some diesel fuel if you think that would be better
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For a cylinder head or manifold I'd just take it to the car wash.
Blast the crap out of it with soap, then plain water.
Get it dry and oiled as soon as possible. Too bad it ain't July along about now.....
yours Scott
I have a power washer at the house here and I am not afraid to use it :)
July is welcome around here for me.
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Baking soda is a weak base, but typical vinegar is like 5% acetic acid. That's also pretty weak.
Someone told me once about spraying aerosol brake cleaner down a gun barrel after shooting corrosive (i.e acidic) ammo. He said that doing that at the range would prevent rusting for at least a day until you could "really" clean it. I've never tried it, but, maybe you have some of that aerosol in your shop?
Cant imagine brake cleaner preventing rust on clean shiny metal but I do have plenty of that around here.
Ive had issues with the vinegar attacking a cast head.....badly. I do not consider straight vinegar as a weak acid any longer.
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Do I need to soak these parts in the baking soda solution and if so for how long? Maybe it needs to be neutralized in the solution which takes a specific amount of time?
The intake I pulled out a few days ago and then immediately soaked in Kerosine started rusting again in the Kerosine if thats believable.
Looks like it was never soaked to remove the rust in the first place. Frustrating!
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Baking soda is a weak base, but typical vinegar is like 5% acetic acid. That's also pretty weak.
Someone told me once about spraying aerosol brake cleaner down a gun barrel after shooting corrosive (i.e acidic) ammo. He said that doing that at the range would prevent rusting for at least a day until you could "really" clean it. I've never tried it, but, maybe you have some of that aerosol in your shop?
Cant imagine brake cleaner preventing rust on clean shiny metal but I do have plenty of that around here.
Ive had issues with the vinegar attacking a cast head.....badly. I do not consider straight vinegar as a weak acid any longer.
Yeah, I've never used brake cleaner that way, but mentioned it because most guys have it in their shop. Maybe it prevents rust by displacing water?
One could also use household ammonia to neutralize an acid. NH3OH is basic, and a liquid would be easier to apply and get into all the crevices, but, the smell might be an issue
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Kerosene will not stop flash rusting, it has a huge affinity for water , and absorbs it right out of the air. It will not dry the surface, you need to dry it with something that will either make the water evaporate (90% alcohol) or something that will displace the water. Note that Wd 40 is water based also, tho it isn't as bad as kero.
Oil should be something light, like sewing machine oil, so it will wick into places you can't reach, and so it won't attract dirt and stick it to the thing you just cleaned.
Brake cleaner has a bit of free chlorine in it, and will passivate steel somewhat, but it also can do weird things to the surface...(It converts some of the rust (ferric ocide) into ferric chloride, which is softer, and washes off, but the steel it still open grained underneath, so it's only a temporary thing)
>I have water outlets, fuel runners ect that cant be just wiped down because there is no access
Compressed air .....
Baking powder comes in a little can marked "Baking powder", it is for making cakes rise, it fizzes when you add water , not what you want;P
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Thanks for the tips/advice guys. Pulled out the intake manifold tonight and all in all I am not satisfied.
Yes the Vinegar did remove the majority of the rust but it does nothing to remove carbon deposits which is a big factor in automotive parts. Intake/exhaust runners, combustion chambers, EGR ports ect that have even the smallest amount of carbon were un-touched with a lengthy dip in the vinegar solution.
Paint was not removed as well which would have been a bonus but was not expected. Grease and oil in even the smallest amount was un-touched.
I was looking for a solution to soak parts in that would remove any foreign material from the cast parts without damaging them, looks like Im going to have to keep looking. From what I have read molasses wont do any better of a job, it will remove the rust but evidently it will leave everything else still behind.
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I've used carburetor spray cleaner for cleaning grimy cast parts in blacksmith forge crank blowers and drill presses. Worked well for me to get into places brushes and such couldn't reach.
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Used to be able to get "crude Carbolic Acid" which was pretty good at removing carbon and damn near anything else, including skin and flesh. Can't get it any more cause some government employee decided it was dangerous to stupid people.
Carbon that has adhered to iron or about any metal is about the hardest thing to remove with any gentle process.
If your parts are 100% iron with NO Aluminum try some spray oven cleaner to see if it loosens the carbon.
If it does, a long soak in sodium hydroxide solution or a shorter soak in heated sodium hydroxide solution will get the job done.
Of course you will then have gallons of HazMat to dispose of.
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Can any of you guys vouch for the Electrolysis method in that it will remove paint, grease and rust ?
I was/am under the impression that it is the way to go for rust removal however I have yet to find anyone who has personally seen it remove grease and paint.
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1, it's not electrolosys. It's electroplating.
2, you are asking about 2 seperate baths, not one unless you're Mr Halfass.
3, it's been disussed here at encyclopedic length, I suggest you employ the SEARCH function.
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Electrolysis is the proper term, but yes, it is technically electroplating since the rust is deposited on the positive side.
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The search function is an absolute joke not only on this site but all other web-sites/forums that I participate in. This is a discussion forum, if some of you do not want to discuss than dont.
I also find on most forums that alot of the info given is given by guys that have only read about it thru wiki or some other bullshit source, I am looking to discuss things with people that have hands on experience. It becomes pretty obvious pretty quick who has the hands on and who is regurgitating info they have read someone else once a discussion starts. The specific details are left out.
Dont believe me try and google how much baking soda ( pounds/OZ ) per gallon of water needs to be used to neutralize the acids of vinegar after soaking parts..........
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Searching that specific topic won't show up here if it has not been discussed here.
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1930, I have progressively used Molasses, Ammonium sulphate (fertiliser) and vinegar (cheap white household vinegar) over the last 20 or so years. After soaking I have always cleaned the object (scrubbed with wire brushes, scourers etc) in water using liquid washing detergent ("Cold Power", do you have that?) on the theory that all washing powders/ liquids are alkali and apart from a slight rust flash if you let it dry slowly (a final rinse with hot water helps) I have been reasonably happy with my slowly learnt methods, apart from the fact that it is very physical! ( using elbow grease has always been hard work) . As to the strength of the neutralising solution I don't think it is very critical, remember it is only vinegar, a very mild acid that we put in and on the foods we eat ! From my experience the main issue IS that you CANNOT use any acid type solutions, particularly vinegar to de-rust any object where you can't get at all the surfaces to physically remove the crud that the vinegar has left behind in reacting with the rust. The only exception being close fitting joints on tools like pliers. I have "restored" fencing pliers that have been buried for years, deeply pitted handles but hardened jaws still useable and the joint "nearly" as good as the day it was made, Ugly as sin but usable! Any hollow rusted area that cannot be cleaned will not only continue to rust but will rust at an accelerated rate thanks to the vinegar remaining in the crud and exposed to moisture in the air. On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen) and the container must have a lid as the vinegar fumes WILL cause all the other tools close by in the workshop to rust !! (Good experience IS gained (or should be?) through having a LOT of bad experienceS!) I should add that I sparingly use vinegar soaking these days as most of the tools that I "more" carefully select and acquire, that are suitable to be cleaned with vinegar can usually be cleaned of rust by scrubbing in the a-fore mentioned washing detergent mix and so leaving most of the "age patina" still there.
Sorry for the long rant.
Graeme
Multiple proof reading corrections!!
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The search function is an absolute joke not only on this site but all other web-sites/forums that I participate in. This is a discussion forum, if some of you do not want to discuss than dont.
I also find on most forums that alot of the info given is given by guys that have only read about it thru wiki or some other bullshit source, I am looking to discuss things with people that have hands on experience. It becomes pretty obvious pretty quick who has the hands on and who is regurgitating info they have read someone else once a discussion starts. The specific details are left out.
Dont believe me try and google how much baking soda ( pounds/OZ ) per gallon of water needs to be used to neutralize the acids of vinegar after soaking parts..........
Gee, golly gosh there , 1 search turned up the 3 page post here covering most of what you asked.
You are absolutely correct regarding InTURDnet Xspertz on rust removal, but then I've only been running multple conversion and removal processes for iron oxides for 30± years.
Now, do tell how you intend to deal with the contamination resulting from the Sodium Bicarbonate so the object will retain coating.
BTW, I've also posted the formula on here for a coating that can and does suppress rusting after raw iron has been exposed to air with water contained in the iron to act as a catalyst.
I'm not about to repeat what I've typed before, happy SEARCH function.
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1930, I have progressively used Molasses, Ammonium sulphate (fertiliser) and vinegar (cheap white household vinegar) over the last 20 or so years. After soaking I have always cleaned the object (scrubbed with wire brushes, scourers etc) in water using liquid washing detergent ("Cold Power", do you have that?) on the theory that all washing powders/ liquids are alkali and apart from a slight rust flash if you let it dry slowly (a final rinse with hot water helps) I have been reasonably happy with my slowly learnt methods, apart from the fact that it is very physical! ( using elbow grease has always been hard work) . As to the strength of the neutralising solution I don't think it is very critical, remember it is only vinegar, a very mild acid that we put in and on the foods we eat ! From my experience the main issue IS that you CANNOT use any acid type solutions, particularly vinegar to de-rust any object where you can't get at all the surfaces to physically remove the crud that the vinegar has left behind in reacting with the rust. The only exception being close fitting joints on tools like pliers. I have "restored" fencing pliers that have been buried for years, deeply pitted handles but hardened jaws still useable and the joint "nearly" as good as the day it was made, Ugly as sin but usable! Any hollow rusted area that cannot be cleaned will not only continue to rust but will rust at an accelerated rate thanks to the vinegar remaining in the crud and exposed to moisture in the air. On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen) and the container must have a lid as the vinegar fumes WILL cause all the other tools close by in the workshop to rust !! (Good experience IS gained (or should be?) through having a LOT of bad experienceS!) I should add that I sparingly use vinegar soaking these days as most of the tools that I "more" carefully select and acquire, that are suitable to be cleaned with vinegar can usually be cleaned of rust by scrubbing in the a-fore mentioned washing detergent mix and so leaving most of the "age patina" still there.
Sorry for the long rant.
Graeme
Multiple proof reading corrections!!
Bear with me, Im a bit confused, you said ............From my experience the main issue IS that you CANNOT use any acid type solutions, particularly vinegar to de-rust any object where you can't get at all the surfaces to physically remove the crud that the vinegar has left behind in reacting with the rust.................
Ok from my experience this makes sense to me, I have all the water passages within the head that obviously I cannot ever get to and it seems to me that the Vinegar has left behind a dark residue within these passages that I can remove here and there by inserting my smallest finger into the hole but of course most of it I cannot get to and rinsing it continuously does not seem to help get rid of that residue.
Here is where I am confused, you then said ...........On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen)...............
This is how I have had my parts soaking, totally immersed in the vinegar.
So do you recommend the vinegar in this case or disapprove and if disapprove than what can you suggest as the best method?
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Here is where I am confused, you then said ...........On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen)...............
This is how I have had my parts soaking, totally immersed in the vinegar.
So do you recommend the vinegar in this case or disapprove and if disapprove than what can you suggest as the best method?
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Sorry 1930 I focused on vinegar in relation to small tools and collectibles in general and not on your present problem. I don't know how this problem would be dealt with in industry, Think that I would have just mechanically cleaned the surfaces I could easily reach, I'm not clear how internally rusted it was? Vinegar doesn't seem to me to be as effective on cast iron as it is on steel and iron and even on then there are some oxide of iron it doesn't attack, but I am not up on the complex chemistry involved. I am not an trained expert on rust removal I just know what has worked for me in home shop scenario. I would imagine that a commercial engine reconditioning shop would have access to methods, chemicals and equipment not available to us at home and usually they don't want to tell us how or what do they but of course have no problem charging us dearly for the small one off job. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Graeme
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>a commercial engine reconditioning shop would have access to methods, chemicals and equipment not available to us at home
One of the chemicals used will eat off your skin in 30 seconds and blind you instantly, so I won't even say what it is here (but it works great).
The other has been banned by the guvment for quite a while...(works even better)
It has become hard to find anyone who will do the cleaning tho, all that gunk you are removing (grease, paint, rust, sludge) still ends up in the tank, has hazardous waste, and has to be paid for to dispose of....
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Someone mentioned brake cleaner - I think that brake cleaner and brake fluid are both too corrosive to use as a wash or cleaner for a manifold. I know that there are those who are proponents of using brake cleaner for cleaning out your heads, but I am not one of them.
The original question, or one of them, asked how much baking soda to use to neutralize vinegar. The answer is "as much as it takes to neutralize the acid" I am not being a smart aleck, the acid strength has been changed by its use, it wasn't that precise out if the bottle, and nobody can give you an exact amount of baking soda to use. Best direction is to add until no more fizzing. Or measure until ph = 0. Vinegar isn't a problem to neutralize anyway - it is so weak you can drink it. Let the gunk settle down to the bottom, pour the clean stuff off the top and save it. Neutralize the remaining gunky stuff. Most of the vinegar was water, let it evaporate if you have a lot of it. Then get rid of it with the rest of your oil waste. The only bad stuff is the part you crudded up with your iron and carbon.
I think you need to scrape where you can and not worry about light carbon buildup in the head. If you have so much buildup inside the head that it is a problem you need to have it professionally cleaned. If it is light buildup, change to a high quality synthetic oil. Or add some treatment to your gasoline to clean it up.
Get it as clean as you can by scraping, wire brushing where you can, etc. Then put it back on. If you are real concerned that it is choking off one of the channels, wire up a little rag and pull it through there.
If you want to clean it just because you want everything factory clean, have it done by pros.
There us no "cheap" way. I would almost bet money that any performance issues are more related to quality of fuel or air/fuel ratio than any buildup inside head tunnels.
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Can someone tell me how much baking soda is required to neutralize the rust removing vinegar solution I have had some parts laying in.
Ive had a cylinder head and an intake manifold sitting in Vinegar for a few days, I pulled out the intake and it was very clean, Vinegar worked very well but the orange came back very quickly so I need to evidently give it a Baking soda bath.
A baking soda bath is not the answer, unless you are trying to neutralize residual vinegar. Even then it can be as problematic as the vinegar. Use water. Lots and lots of water to flush tge vinegar.
To stop rusting after cleaning, then flushing thoroughly with water, then drying, put some light oil on it to kep it from rusting further. All cast iron will lightly rust on its own to form a thin oxide layer unless something is put on it.
Vinegar or other acids that work on metal won't work on carbon or paint, necessarilly. If you soak it long enough to remove the iron it is connected to, it'll fall off. Oven cleaner works well on most auto paint. Airline paint remover works better. Carbon is removed, in my experience with grease (Elbow grease). Elbow grease is the only reliable method available to the masses.
Chilly
PS Don't think that there is a cheap chemical that will make up for 1000's of miles of cheap gas. There's a reason for mid and high grades.
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>a commercial engine reconditioning shop would have access to methods, chemicals and equipment not available to us at home
One of the chemicals used will eat off your skin in 30 seconds and blind you instantly, so I won't even say what it is here (but it works great).
The other has been banned by the guvment for quite a while...(works even better)
It has become hard to find anyone who will do the cleaning tho, all that gunk you are removing (grease, paint, rust, sludge) still ends up in the tank, has hazardous waste, and has to be paid for to dispose of....
Yes, this is what I have found to be true as well although Im not sure about the part about a chemical still existing that will eat the skin off in 30 seconds, not sure that is avail in Fl any longer.
Since working on this project and others automotive related I have found ( by actually speaking with machinists/parts counter people in other states ) that many of the products offered up north for instance are simply not avail in southern states.
Makes no sense.
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Someone mentioned brake cleaner - I think that brake cleaner and brake fluid are both too corrosive to use as a wash or cleaner for a manifold. I know that there are those who are proponents of using brake cleaner for cleaning out your heads, but I am not one of them.
The original question, or one of them, asked how much baking soda to use to neutralize vinegar. The answer is "as much as it takes to neutralize the acid" I am not being a smart aleck, the acid strength has been changed by its use, it wasn't that precise out if the bottle, and nobody can give you an exact amount of baking soda to use. Best direction is to add until no more fizzing. Or measure until ph = 0. Vinegar isn't a problem to neutralize anyway - it is so weak you can drink it. Let the gunk settle down to the bottom, pour the clean stuff off the top and save it. Neutralize the remaining gunky stuff. Most of the vinegar was water, let it evaporate if you have a lot of it. Then get rid of it with the rest of your oil waste. The only bad stuff is the part you crudded up with your iron and carbon.
I think you need to scrape where you can and not worry about light carbon buildup in the head. If you have so much buildup inside the head that it is a problem you need to have it professionally cleaned. If it is light buildup, change to a high quality synthetic oil. Or add some treatment to your gasoline to clean it up.
Get it as clean as you can by scraping, wire brushing where you can, etc. Then put it back on. If you are real concerned that it is choking off one of the channels, wire up a little rag and pull it through there.
If you want to clean it just because you want everything factory clean, have it done by pros.
There us no "cheap" way. I would almost bet money that any performance issues are more related to quality of fuel or air/fuel ratio than any buildup inside head tunnels.
Brake cleaner in that amount is cost prohibitive.
I have seen with my own eyes Vinegar eat/soften cast iron with enough exposure so not all that weak out of the bottle. I did not know and could not find info about the soda amount and that is why I asked, it is becoming more clear to me because I did ask, thanks for your input on this .....I.E until it stops fizzing and checking the PH amount.
I have read that the EPA has taken away most shops abilities to properly clean parts so that they come out looking like new parts. This is only an experiment, maybe the EPA took away their ability ( big shop ) but I still have the ability. Dont know until I ask around and so this is what I have been doing.
I like to do everything I do as best as I can do it, if it takes me a very long time to learn the best was and alot of trial error and is some instances money than so be it. This is a hobby for me, I am in no rush with my hobbies and I find the trial-error-learning process rewarding.
I understand that it makes some people on these on-line forums feel frustrated because they cannot understand my way of thinking but what can I say.
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Here is where I am confused, you then said ...........On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen)...............
This is how I have had my parts soaking, totally immersed in the vinegar.
So do you recommend the vinegar in this case or disapprove and if disapprove than what can you suggest as the best method?
Sorry 1930 I focused on vinegar in relation to small tools and collectibles in general and not on your present problem. I don't know how this problem would be dealt with in industry, Think that I would have just mechanically cleaned the surfaces I could easily reach, I'm not clear how internally rusted it was? Vinegar doesn't seem to me to be as effective on cast iron as it is on steel and iron and even on then there are some oxide of iron it doesn't attack, but I am not up on the complex chemistry involved. I am not an trained expert on rust removal I just know what has worked for me in home shop scenario. I would imagine that a commercial engine reconditioning shop would have access to methods, chemicals and equipment not available to us at home and usually they don't want to tell us how or what do they but of course have no problem charging us dearly for the small one off job. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Graeme
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No problem whatsoever, I am only looking for honest preferably self tested techniques/experiences
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Lets begin with the FACT vinegar is commercially produced in a "generator" heated retort type vessel made of cast iron. Vinegar is a nasty product in that it is an acid, and not particularly friendly to iron. Vinegar generators have a life expectancy of about 6 months, and all plumbing to and from them is PVC, and holding tanks are usually poly. Vinegar will also destroy copper, although it lasts longer.
Vinegar will dissolve rust, BUT, vinegar does NOT stop attacking iron molecules when it reaches good metal. Vinegar is a poor rust remover given that it damages iron.
WHY does freshly derusted iron flash rust so fast, and what can be done to stop that?
Well gee, you just exposed pure iron containing molecules to oxygen and provided the catalyst that makes rust react. DOH!
You want to stop rust from happening, remove the catalyst instantly by heating the casting or iron object to 300° in a water free atmosphere, and that ain't your gas grill that produces water from the burning propane.
Motor oil and transmission fluid don't cut it either because both are formulated to absorb water.
WD 40 ain't getting the job done either, it's mostly Kerosene and designed to DISPLACE water, not stop water.
Got a lot of money to waste, look at Boeshield or Fluid film. Both are mixes of lanolin and mineral oil with a carrier. You can make it for less than 1/4 of what you can buy it from either manufacturer.
On the subject of carbon. Carbon is an element, it cannot be broken down in the manner rust can. Rust is 2 elements, and can be broken apart by removing either the iron atom or the oxygen atom. Both Iron and oxygen are elements and cannot be broken down although both can be combined with many other elements fairly easily at room temperature. Carbon does not like to combine unless a lot of temperature is added to the equation.
Yes, there used to be commercial hot tanks used in engine shops. They were steel tanks with a high capacity burner and most had agitators, and they were usually ticking time bombs. NO, they have not been outlawed by EPA or anyone else. EPA and the Possum Police in every State have placed books of rules on the operation of these tanks with cradle to grave registration of the chemistry the tank operates on. That costs far more money than the tank can generate in any production situation today when added to the cost of fuel and INSURANCE.
Are there effective room temperature carbon removers? Yes. Look at a can of EZ Off or any oven cleaner.
These work not by dissolving carbon, but rather than breaking down the material adhesing the carbon to the metal, and require time and a friendly environment to function. THEY CAN ALSO CAUSE SERIOUS SKIN BURNS AND BLIND YOU IF YOU GET SOME IN YOUR EYE.
Since carbon cannot atomically combine with iron below the melt point of the iron, we know the carbon is stuck to the engine by a adhesive bond. This is different from "Mill scale" on new steel from a mill. We also know most castings are wonderful adhesion surfaces because they are rough. Removing carbon from an engine increases in difficulty tremendously because the carbon has been impinged onto the surface at high temperature, and grabbed a foothold on both the roughness and porosity of the metal. Then it was baked into place.
Since carbon has no propensity to go into solution with anything else at room temperature, it ain't coming away from iron easily. There seems to be a theory in the cooking industry that carbon comes off easily with a cleaning agent. Most of the cleaning agents offered for sale at high price are strictly dissolvers of the grease holding the carbon adhesed to the iron, employing the same group of ingredients found in paint strippers. These are some nasty products that will eat your skin and blind you. If you insist on using them, have plenty of BEER standing by. Beer is the best neutralizer that will stop the burning,actually the consumption of fat cells in your skin by the corrosive ingredient. If you don't need the beer for first aid, you can always drink it as you admire your work.
Want an easy & fast wat to remove carbon and carbon contained in fully plasticized grease from metal? Liquid Nitrogen. It breaks the bond fast. It will also cost you a fortune for the Nitrogen and equipment to handle it. It's damn fast though.
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I use solvent bath & stiff brush to clean grease & oil, sometimes use acetone to remove paint also. (depending on type of paint) may need to scrape it off. Then vinegar soak to dissolve rust, rinse off vinegar, mix ~1/2 water & 1/2 Baking soda & brush allover till it stops foaming (Neutralized). rinse off baking soda, dry parts (towel & hair dryer), & spray/rub light oil to coat parts. (Mineral oil works)..
That water/baking soda mix works great to clean battery terminals..
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Lets begin with the FACT vinegar is commercially produced in a "generator" heated retort type vessel made of cast iron. Vinegar is a nasty product in that it is an acid, and not particularly friendly to iron. Vinegar generators have a life expectancy of about 6 months, and all plumbing to and from them is PVC, and holding tanks are usually poly. Vinegar will also destroy copper, although it lasts longer.
Vinegar will dissolve rust, BUT, vinegar does NOT stop attacking iron molecules when it reaches good metal. Vinegar is a poor rust remover given that it damages iron.
WHY does freshly derusted iron flash rust so fast, and what can be done to stop that?
Well gee, you just exposed pure iron containing molecules to oxygen and provided the catalyst that makes rust react. DOH!
You want to stop rust from happening, remove the catalyst instantly by heating the casting or iron object to 300° in a water free atmosphere, and that ain't your gas grill that produces water from the burning propane.
Motor oil and transmission fluid don't cut it either because both are formulated to absorb water.
WD 40 ain't getting the job done either, it's mostly Kerosene and designed to DISPLACE water, not stop water.
Got a lot of money to waste, look at Boeshield or Fluid film. Both are mixes of lanolin and mineral oil with a carrier. You can make it for less than 1/4 of what you can buy it from either manufacturer.
On the subject of carbon. Carbon is an element, it cannot be broken down in the manner rust can. Rust is 2 elements, and can be broken apart by removing either the iron atom or the oxygen atom. Both Iron and oxygen are elements and cannot be broken down although both can be combined with many other elements fairly easily at room temperature. Carbon does not like to combine unless a lot of temperature is added to the equation.
Yes, there used to be commercial hot tanks used in engine shops. They were steel tanks with a high capacity burner and most had agitators, and they were usually ticking time bombs. NO, they have not been outlawed by EPA or anyone else. EPA and the Possum Police in every State have placed books of rules on the operation of these tanks with cradle to grave registration of the chemistry the tank operates on. That costs far more money than the tank can generate in any production situation today when added to the cost of fuel and INSURANCE.
Are there effective room temperature carbon removers? Yes. Look at a can of EZ Off or any oven cleaner.
These work not by dissolving carbon, but rather than breaking down the material adhesing the carbon to the metal, and require time and a friendly environment to function. THEY CAN ALSO CAUSE SERIOUS SKIN BURNS AND BLIND YOU IF YOU GET SOME IN YOUR EYE.
Since carbon cannot atomically combine with iron below the melt point of the iron, we know the carbon is stuck to the engine by a adhesive bond. This is different from "Mill scale" on new steel from a mill. We also know most castings are wonderful adhesion surfaces because they are rough. Removing carbon from an engine increases in difficulty tremendously because the carbon has been impinged onto the surface at high temperature, and grabbed a foothold on both the roughness and porosity of the metal. Then it was baked into place.
Since carbon has no propensity to go into solution with anything else at room temperature, it ain't coming away from iron easily. There seems to be a theory in the cooking industry that carbon comes off easily with a cleaning agent. Most of the cleaning agents offered for sale at high price are strictly dissolvers of the grease holding the carbon adhesed to the iron, employing the same group of ingredients found in paint strippers. These are some nasty products that will eat your skin and blind you. If you insist on using them, have plenty of BEER standing by. Beer is the best neutralizer that will stop the burning,actually the consumption of fat cells in your skin by the corrosive ingredient. If you don't need the beer for first aid, you can always drink it as you admire your work.
Want an easy & fast wat to remove carbon and carbon contained in fully plasticized grease from metal? Liquid Nitrogen. It breaks the bond fast. It will also cost you a fortune for the Nitrogen and equipment to handle it. It's damn fast though.
I recently soaked a mid eighties slant six head in a straight white vinegar solution ( clear plastic container enclosed in black trash bags to take advantage of any heat given off by our Florida sun ) for 7 days, at the end of the 7th day I removed cylinder head to find that a majority of the MACHINED surfaces had become soft, I was able to dig down into the cast iron with a screwdriver or razor blade to about the depth of a business card before reaching hard metal.
I say only a majority because there were some pimple sized ( and slightly larger ) segments of the machined surfaces that were still hard typical cast iron, very few and very sporadic across the surfaces. Again only the machined surfaces but after thinking about the un-machined surfaces they were possibly still coated with paint ( in the places I tested ) which was un-affected by the vinegar. Possibly a protectant?
Do you believe this and can you explain why this happened?
I have had other people come very close to telling me that I am making up the scenario mentioned above, that Vinegar is not strong enough to do this type of damage to cast iron.
Cylinder head is junk, I let sit for 3-4 days and just for the heck of it tried the scrape test again and the cast iron appeared to have reverted back to its old solid form.
Thanks for any explanation you can provide.
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> Vinegar is not strong enough to do this type of damage to cast iron.
Surprising, but after a whole week in the sun, perhaps it could happen , a little. Normally the effect requires burial in the ground for a while in very nasty soil conditions.
It is called Graphitic Softening, it is peculular to high carbon cast irons. The acid ate the iron crystals, leaving the graphite skeletin around them, which preserves the overall shape, but is soft and easily damaged/abraided. The iron is still there, but it has been converted into colloidal iron (hyper fine particles). When you let it dry out, they support the graphite, so it seems hard again however, the metal has in fact been damaged, it is now very brittle and weak.
The effect is described in a research paper in 1924, so it's not really something new ;P
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> Vinegar is not strong enough to do this type of damage to cast iron.
Surprising, but after a whole week in the sun, perhaps it could happen , a little. Normally the effect requires burial in the ground for a while in very nasty soil conditions.
It is called Graphitic Softening, it is peculular to high carbon cast irons. The acid ate the iron crystals, leaving the graphite skeletin around them, which preserves the overall shape, but is soft and easily damaged/abraided. The iron is still there, but it has been converted into colloidal iron (hyper fine particles). When you let it dry out, they support the graphite, so it seems hard again however, the metal has in fact been damaged, it is now very brittle and weak.
The effect is described in a research paper in 1924, so it's not really something new ;P
Rusty, will you please give me a link to ..............The effect is described in a research paper in 1924.............I would like to read the original version as what you describe seems to fit perfectly with my situation.
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Im going to guess this is what you were referring to? http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50174a010
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Very well said Aunt Phil!
I'd like to expound upon a couple of your points:
Lets begin with the FACT vinegar is commercially produced in a "generator" heated retort type vessel made of cast iron. Vinegar is a nasty product in that it is an acid, and not particularly friendly to iron. Vinegar generators have a life expectancy of about 6 months, and all plumbing to and from them is PVC, and holding tanks are usually poly. Vinegar will also destroy copper, although it lasts longer.
Vinegar will dissolve rust, BUT, vinegar does NOT stop attacking iron molecules when it reaches good metal. Vinegar is a poor rust remover given that it damages iron.
I wouldn't like to scare people away from using vinegar as an acid. (I'm not suggesting that you were, but I wouldn't classify it as "nasty" as far as acids go, but I do agree that generally most acids (including acetic acid) are "nasty" compared to other stuff we are likely to encounter in our life.
To further clarify vinegar (a dilute acetic acid solution) is a weak acid (weak and strong are two of many types of acid.) Generally, but not always, weak acids are less corrosive than strong acids (just like spelling in that there are exceptions that make sense only when you dig deep into the definitions of the types.) Vinegar is relatively safe and usually not a big disposal concern.
In a metals reactivity series iron (Fe) and some other metals react with acids. Some less reactive metals even react with water! ( for instance sodium and calcium. ) Some more reactive metals (for example copper, silver, gold) may react with strong oxidizing acids.
Carbon is kind of unique among all of the elements. In many ways it seem to contradict itself. I am cheating and quoting the following from wikipedia:
" The different forms or allotropes of carbon (see below) include the hardest naturally occurring substance, diamond, and also one of the softest known substances, graphite. Moreover, it has an affinity for bonding with other small atoms, including other carbon atoms, and is capable of forming multiple stable covalent bonds with such atoms. As a result, carbon is known to form almost ten million different compounds; the large majority of all chemical compounds.[14] Carbon also has the highest sublimation point of all elements. At atmospheric pressure it has no melting point as its triple point is at 10.8 ± 0.2 MPa and 4,600 ± 300 K (~4,330 °C or 7,820 °F),[2][3] so it sublimes at about 3,900 K.[17][18]
Carbon sublimes in a carbon arc which has a temperature of about 5,800 K (5,530 °C; 9,980 °F). Thus, irrespective of its allotropic form, carbon remains solid at higher temperatures than the highest melting point metals such as tungsten or rhenium. Although thermodynamically prone to oxidation, carbon resists oxidation more effectively than elements such as iron and copper that are weaker reducing agents at room temperature.
Carbon compounds form the basis of all known life on Earth, and the carbon-nitrogen cycle provides some of the energy produced by the Sun and other stars. Although it forms an extraordinary variety of compounds, most forms of carbon are comparatively unreactive under normal conditions. At standard temperature and pressure, it resists all but the strongest oxidizers. It does not react with sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid, chlorine or any alkalis. At elevated temperatures carbon reacts with oxygen to form carbon oxides, and will reduce such metal oxides as iron oxide to the metal. This exothermic reaction is used in the iron and steel industry to control the carbon content of steel:
Fe
3O
4 + 4 C(s) → 3 Fe(s) + 4 CO(g)
with sulfur to form carbon disulfide and with steam in the coal-gas reaction:
C(s) + H2O(g) → CO(g) + H2(g).
Carbon combines with some metals at high temperatures to form metallic carbides, such as the iron carbide cementite in steel, and tungsten carbide, widely used as an abrasive and for making hard tips for cutting tools. "
As you can see there is a reason for all the confusion and also all the theories on how to remove the "carbon" deposits.
So, bottom line:
1. All acids are nasty.
2. Vinegar is relatively safe for being a nasty.
3. Carbon deposits are hard to remove chemically.
And like I said earlier - if you are going cheap and using regular gas in your engine, don't expect to find a cheap method for removing hidden carbon deposits from an intake manifold ten yrs later. There isn't one. (I've considered chemical, steam, etc.) Only inexpensive way to remove it is mechanically, with a scraper and hard work. For most purposes I think it is on par with cleaning the inside of your tires.
Chilly
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Well. If we're going to go all blue on carbon, lets not forget Carbon is the only element that shrinks rather than expands as it gets hot, lowers electrical resistance when hot, and changes resistance as it is compressed.
Carbon has strange properties.
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And a little char on a good steak is tasty, but a little more and its ruined.
Chilly
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Can any of you guys vouch for the Electrolysis method in that it will remove paint, grease and rust ?
I was/am under the impression that it is the way to go for rust removal however I have yet to find anyone who has personally seen it remove grease and paint.
The following is from a post I made quite a long while ago. Keep in mind that electrolysis will work primarily on the exposed areas and not the oil or watergalleys I have cleaned those areas with WD-40 and long thin wire brush, thin wash the entire object with water, quickly dry and give a liberal oil soaking. Worked well for me. In addition the lawn liked the residue from the electrolysis which is non toxic. Also it is non destructive to the item being de-rusted. EDIT: Electrolysis will NOT REMOVE PAINT
BELOW IS MY SUCCESSFUL work with electrolysis
"OLD GUYS RULE" --- East Sacramento, CA
Re: Rust Removal
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 04:04:25 PM »
I have just finished my first attempt using electrolysis. It worked very well removing the rust and was very easy. My only problem is that it turned one of the items very black.
The items worked:
#1 1930-40 tack puller will be my first Perfect Handle project. I will use fresh maple that I am in the process of drying.
#2 six inch section of RR track that I will make a small bench top anvil from.
Electrolysis turned both items black. This is not a problem with the puller as it was black to begin with. But the track section turned pitch black and so far a wire wheel doesn't phase it. Well maybe a black anvil isn't sooo bad but I really would like it to shine. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I will say tho that there is not a speck of rust anywhere. I quickly washed both Items, dried, and oiled them heavily. I will have to wait until my maple is ready to complete the handle for the tack puller. I will try to get some pics up. Oh since I really don't have a place to store my electrolyte container the lawn got a good dose of high iron fertilizer.
Well I did try pics. I will put them on photobucket and see if it works.
http://s1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/ietech/Perfect%20Handle%20Project/?albumview=slideshow
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Can any of you guys vouch for the Electrolysis method in that it will remove paint, grease and rust ?
I was/am under the impression that it is the way to go for rust removal however I have yet to find anyone who has personally seen it remove grease and paint.
The following is from a post I made quite a long while ago. Keep in mind that electrolysis will work primarily on the exposed areas and not the oil or watergalleys I have cleaned those areas with WD-40 and long thin wire brush, thin wash the entire object with water, quickly dry and give a liberal oil soaking. Worked well for me. In addition the lawn liked the residue from the electrolysis which is non toxic. Also it is non destructive to the item being de-rusted. EDIT: Electrolysis will NOT REMOVE PAINT
BELOW IS MY SUCCESSFUL work with electrolysis
"OLD GUYS RULE" --- East Sacramento, CA
Re: Rust Removal
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 04:04:25 PM »
I have just finished my first attempt using electrolysis. It worked very well removing the rust and was very easy. My only problem is that it turned one of the items very black.
The items worked:
#1 1930-40 tack puller will be my first Perfect Handle project. I will use fresh maple that I am in the process of drying.
#2 six inch section of RR track that I will make a small bench top anvil from.
Electrolysis turned both items black. This is not a problem with the puller as it was black to begin with. But the track section turned pitch black and so far a wire wheel doesn't phase it. Well maybe a black anvil isn't sooo bad but I really would like it to shine. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I will say tho that there is not a speck of rust anywhere. I quickly washed both Items, dried, and oiled them heavily. I will have to wait until my maple is ready to complete the handle for the tack puller. I will try to get some pics up. Oh since I really don't have a place to store my electrolyte container the lawn got a good dose of high iron fertilizer.
Well I did try pics. I will put them on photobucket and see if it works.
http://s1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/ietech/Perfect%20Handle%20Project/?albumview=slideshow
Thanks everyone for the time spent. Im juggling a few projects and only have the weekends for all this stuff so I am picking at things little by little.