Tool Talk
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kxxr on March 23, 2012, 05:38:48 AM
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I stumbled into this site and thought some of you might find it interesting. Some of you may already be familiar with it; I had not seen it before. Standard disclaimer here: I have no connection to the site or it's owner and I offer no endorsement or comment other than 'here's a cool site with a lot of great tools pictured on it'. Enjoy a nice little tour.
http://www.vintagetools.net/products.php
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Nice stuff !! I am no expert but his prices seemed high, at least for the vises and the Jorgensen clamps ?
Brian L.
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Nice stuff !! I am no expert but his prices seemed high, at least for the vises and the Jorgensen clamps ?
Brian L.
Some prices are high, others not so much -- at least in the blacksmith section.
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As on many of these sites,
"If I could get those prices, I'd be a millionaire!"
I generally pay around 25% of what I see him asking for most stuff. The top stuff is not awful in price. High but not awful. But then there are never very many customers for the top stuff.
Its the middling merchandise that is where all the action is.
Every once in a while I see a ringer, something that is actually a good value for the price.
Mostly though, its just another "pie in the sky" website. Outright laughable to me.
Of course, taking good pictures and writing flowery descriptions has always been a very valuable commodity to the newbies who can't perceive the wheat from the chaff any other way. And tool collecting, just like any other hobby, is mostly supported by newbies at any given time. (the old whores never buy much of anything anymore)
So it may just be a successful site after all. I would be interested to know.
yours Scott
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You know your in trouble when the first thing in the category is payment options :)
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WOWdo you know what my garage is worthLOL bob w.
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As on many of these sites,
"If I could get those prices, I'd be a millionaire!"
I generally pay around 25% of what I see him asking for most stuff. The top stuff is not awful in price. High but not awful. But then there are never very many customers for the top stuff.
Its the middling merchandise that is where all the action is.
Every once in a while I see a ringer, something that is actually a good value for the price.
Mostly though, its just another "pie in the sky" website. Outright laughable to me.
Of course, taking good pictures and writing flowery descriptions has always been a very valuable commodity to the newbies who can't perceive the wheat from the chaff any other way. And tool collecting, just like any other hobby, is mostly supported by newbies at any given time. (the old whores never buy much of anything anymore)
So it may just be a successful site after all. I would be interested to know.
yours Scott
Holy crap dude, how'd you like the pictures? Whew! 'Old Whore' status sounds miserable. I can't quite figure out what you're getting at.
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I think what Scott is saying is that theres a sucker born everyday and its usually someone that just getting into a particular hobby and is as green as my lawn once was :)
Ask me who I know that could fit that description
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I think what Scott is saying is that theres a sucker born everyday and its usually someone that just getting into a particular hobby and is as green as my lawn once was :)
Ask me who I know that could fit that description
Yup
At any give time, in any hobby, about 75% of the population is newbies.
People take up stamp collecting or tool collecting and then hang around a while, and then move on to something else. It happens in every hobby and activity. Running or rowing or doll collecting. Its all the same. And there are a large majority at any given time. It runs in fads.
So the newbies, for those first few months/years they usually get all excited and pay $400 for shoes or $800 for a Barbie doll. But after the first flush wears off, they buy less and less and with a sharper eye.
The old timers in any hobby, the ones who stick it out, usually have already found good things and even though we always look, it better be great and it better be cheap.
Because we all know, if it was ever factory made in the first place, even smaller shop in the 18th century, there are more around.
So the $200 for a replacement blade or $85 dollar screwdriver sellers, we generally skoff at.
I have been collecting tools for 40 years. Just imagine how excited I am to see a common tool offered for 60 bucks when I have left the same thing behind at the swap meet many times, didn't even pick it up, at a 3 dollar asking price.
yours Scott
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I have to agree with Scott here.
Starting with one old wrench, a BAHCO adjustable, I became enamored with old wrenches, and discovered Coes, etc. monkey wrenches. I was the newbie, buying all sorts of them at the wrong prices, but what did I know?
Other styles became points of interest and my focus became better as I grew in this hobby. Now I am much choosier when looking and buying.
But, I do hope we always have newbies to mentor and introduce to our group. They are often more enthusiastic and sometimes we need that to overcome our jaded palates now and then.
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I don't argue "there is a sucker born every minute" and that I'm sometimes one of them. I wouldn't argue that an under educated person may spend more on a given tool that a person that is educated in a) its value and b) where you may find it cheaper. A couple of points I'd make:
1) I have an issue seeing this black / white line between a tool purchased for collection and one purchased for us or both. I've spent significantly more money in my life on tools when I needed one than I have on "collecting"; yet I find myself at midlife with a very large "collection". Just happened I was smart enough along the way to invest in quality tools. I'm often "filling holes" in some of my tool collections where I don't mind spending more money for higher quality - no matter the business channel I find it - being new to tool "collecting" has little to do with my decision to spend more money on filling a hole with my workers. I know I often could pay less for a tool if I did not need it right now for this job. If I'm focused on getting a backhoe rebuilt I have little time to cruise the pawn shops and flea markets for just that tool at just that price. I find the same is often true of selling tools, where a particular 40's dozer oil plug wrench sold at high dollar to a shop that needed it more than the guy wanting to hang it on the wall.
2) I've seen seasoned collectors spend IMHO ridiculous amounts of money on items they wanted. Case in point Craftsman amber handle ratchet. As a newbie there is no way I'd spend several hundred for a ratchet. I'll take my chances on lucking upon one.
3) As a "tool collector" (that is buying a tool with little intention of working it rather just owning it) - without question I have spent more money buying tools from folks in tool forums than I have from commercial channels - so what does that make the seasoned collector selling tools to the newbie on tool forums at prices inflated upon street value at pawn shops and flea markets? I'm not complaining nor am I judging - I've not made a single deal I regretted or thought was a bad deal for me or the other person. Just asking what that says for the person selling them at said high price.
4) As a "newbie" I often find that, in the end, I have gotten a great deal. I also often find I didn't really buy smart enough. I see purchases by new and old collector alike that are so far above what I'd pay. I also see both finding really great deals on tools where I'm very jealous. IMHO it is difficult to place these groups in buckets and make accurate general statements.
Maybe consider also it could be a matter of the financial discipline of a particular person - new to a hobby or not.
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It is always hazardous to generalize. People collect things for many different reasons, and sometimes the reasons define what they are willing to aquite and at what price. If you use tools in addition to collecting them , as I do, sometimes your criteria are different than they might otherwise be. Sometimes you pay a little more for something because you know you will need to use it for something, and even tho a cheaper/better one might come along, you don't know how long it will be.
Sometimes the line is a little gray...I sometimes wonder how many 'backup' socket sets I really need for everyday use....(Then again, I have sometimes split sets and made 'travel sets' with no qualms about not having something available in the shop...
Sometimes you just have to buy new things too -P
Sometimes you just need one last tool to complete a set...and you don't care much if it's a little overpriced...
>I'll take my chances on lucking upon one.
Functionally, amber colored handles do not add one cent to the value of a tool, so that is the practical side speaking. The coolness side says "hardly anyone has one ;:::P
Somewhere I have a neat looking handsaw with a bright red semi clear plastic handle. I am told they are somewhat uncommon (I assume most of them broke). I will hang it on the wall, or gaze upon it. I won't use it, it is rusted a bit, dull, and badly set, and I have a perfectly good wooden handled saw....
Sometimes it is just because it looks interesting....(But I admit, I paid nothing for it )
> I've seen seasoned collectors spend IMHO ridiculous amounts of money
Yes, even the old tool whores are susceptable to auction fever .....
The biggest thing I see with new collectors (collecting almost anything) isn't so much value/price, but lack of focus, they want to collect everything at the same time, unless you just won megabucks, you just don't have the resources to spread out that thin.....
>what that says for the person selling them at said high price.
A sucker requires a shuckster, no question....
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I don't care for it when the obvious is stated as though it were wisdom yet to be attained by those being addressed; as if to say, "I've been where others have not been, nor can they go there, but I carry with me all they need to know".
Whether I agree or disagree, I find an attitude of assumption untenable; which is all just a flowery way to say, 'no one likes a know it all'. Wisdom is everywhere, and we've all been somewhere.
I posted the link to the web site because I liked the pictures and there were a lot of them, all in one place. The old whore lore was irrelevant to the post and its purpose; and, in a word, condescending.
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Just to explain better/clear things up, I dont regret any of the tools I paid too much for. When I was a young child and on up I collected woodworking tools, dont know wether I paid too much and dont care, I enjoy them, when I started collecting tools for my trade I bough the best I could and un-doubtably paid too much for most of them and I dont care because I enjoy the idea and satisfaction of knowing that at one point I could afford them and I enjoy having most of them, when I started diligently collecting tool-kit tools not long ago for Chrysler products I surely paid too much for some of them compared to what I have sometimes bough them for on flea-bay but again I dont care, I talked with some nice people, met some nice people here and am glad to have every one of them.
I understand that I am taking this thread in a different direction but some of the poeple that have sold me tools are reading this and I dont want anyone to think I have any poor feelings because if I had the money now I prob. would do it all again just to give that old tool a safe place to sleep at night.
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The only tool I might have paid too much for is a D.R. Barton adz. The antique store dealer had it marked 25 or 35 bucks (can't remember). I was looking at it and found the Barton mark and made a happy comment on the mark. "O," she said. "That should be $45 then." That made me not so happy, but it was really nice adz in good condition, so I bought it anyway. In just one job it made me almost a thousand dollars, so there's nothing to regret.
I don't look for tools that are pristine examples (yet, anyway). I look for tools that work decently. My biggest expenditure to date was a Craftsman marked Stanley 45 for $85. It came in its original leatherette bag with all of its blades in their box, and scarcely had any rub marks on the fence. A pair of 24" 18th Century dividers and a pre-1840's claw hammer set me back $35 each. Another $35 got me a carriage makers short rabbet plane with a replacement blade from 1770.
Newbies almost certainly account for a lot of high prices. But so do collectors with a lot of money. I have a really nice Stanley #101 1/2, but only because it was in the back of a tool box I bought for ten bucks. Glad to have it, but I'm not gonna pay the going price to get one.
There's economics, but there's also the treasure hunt aspect. Some people want to *have* the tools while some of us want to *find* the tools. Some people want pristine, some want a tool they aren't afraid to use, or a tool they need to use.
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Quote..........I don't look for tools that are pristine examples..........I look for quite the opposite ( within reason of course ) I like to see that it has been used and not stickin to someone wall or behind their glass case
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Quote..........I don't look for tools that are pristine examples..........I look for quite the opposite ( within reason of course ) I like to see that it has been used and not stickin to someone wall or behind their glass case
That's me all over. If something is a pristine example, I'd be afraid to use it. It's like driving a brand new car off the lot -- once you've done that, it becomes a used car and no longer worth what you've paid for it.
I like to see that a tool has been used. Use gives a different sort of beauty to any object. Japanese has a word for that: "shibui." Shibui is a beauty that is made by use and cannot be found in an object that has never been used.
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Shibui is a beauty that is made by use
In that case I have boxes and boxes of Shibui in the back room ; P
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Nice site with good photos, but I'll stick to my yard/estate sale/thrift store rounds. I like getting vintage American-made tools for pennies, and it's working pretty well so far.
I only regret not starting 10-15+ years ago ...
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Shibui is a beauty that is made by use
In that case I have boxes and boxes of Shibui in the back room ; P
Since shibui can be applied to people who have been polished and sculpted by time and use, I suspect there's quite a bit of shibui on Tool Talk.
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I only regret not starting 10-15+ years ago ...
It didn't help me much.
When I started, almost 40 years ago, there were no clubs. No books, no groups, much less national collecting in any way.
"Tool guys" were mangy fringe characters at the last edge of the swap meet, carting around big boxes and carts of rusty dirty old tools nobody wanted at any price. People would sidestep the area they worked and not meet their eye. Tool sellers were pretty similar to guys who pick up cans for a living now, and held in much the same esteem by society. Always dirty, clinging to things nobody wanted.
In the shops, tools were in the outright junk stores. Places called Trading Post or Arky Don's or Mister X, out on the edge of town. They were filled with old toasters and chipped glassware and moldering bowling bags, in rundown old buildings on the margins with awful lighting where the paint was peeling, the rent was cheap and everything always dirty.
Or sometimes in bottom of the barrel "antique shops" whose main difference between the junk shops was the sign, but found in the same locations. Shops that never had any quality goods and were probably going to go out of business in 3 months time.
And always the tools would be in the back down on the floor underneath the last sales tables. They were just old tools.
This was where the tools were, and they were dirt cheap. Whatever they had, whatever you found, was cheap.
But I was dead broke and often had to haggle hard over 25 cent buys.
I saw so many great things go by. Wonderful tools of all kinds.
I had no idea some of them would eventually be worth the price of a house, or others a very good car. They were all just old used tools then. Some a bit more attractive than others.
Nobody was saying how much difference that little bit of attractiveness was going to be worth someday.
A beech plow only worth 40 dollars even now,.... or a rosewood worth $400 or $4,000 or $40,000 or $249,000 value someday, if it was "a little better". And they were just as likely to be side by side, and little difference in price.
But whatever it was, if it was priced at 3 dollars I could only sigh and keep moving.
I wanted tools to start my woodworking. I had babies to raise and a poor young life to struggle through. If I wanted to try my hand at woodworking, it would have to be almost for free.
I had to take old hand tools and learn to make them work. It was all I could afford.
And I did get some. I still have a precious few from those times.
But hardly anything and I never did have all that much.
I just saw it go by.
Life is long.
And its weird
yours Scott
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Forty years ago... I was a grad student with less responsibilities but not much more money than you, Scott, and looking in a lot of the same places for wood working tools. Yard sales and flea markets were my friends. I bought old dirty chisels for about a quarter, and promised myself that someday when I had a job that paid real money I'd buy some real chisels. The day came, and I went to a store and bought three of those "real" chisels. I found it wasn't possible to get an edge or keep an edge on them that would match the old dirty chisels I got for a quarter. I might have one of those still, but I've got all of the 25 cent rusty dirty old chisels I ever bought. Most are Buck Bros, W Butchers, and D.R. Bartons.
Yep, under the tables and on the floor in boxes at the back end of stores with bad lighting.
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When I stroll an antique mall, I am always looking at the bottom shelves in the back of each place.
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I have a few wrenches some I got for nothing some I paid a real high price I buy what I want to fill in or be a center piece.
when i want a piece i usually buy.i have some that are considered worthless but I like the piece. I have some high priced stuff that i do not like ( USUALLY GETS TRADED OFF) The price should not be the main reason to buy.I have a small adjustable wrench that has been in my pocket for twenty years.It is my worry stone. It has been to weddings ,christenings,funerals and shopping. I just like the way it feels.
bob w.
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I have a few wrenches some I got for nothing some I paid a real high price I buy what I want to fill in or be a center piece.
when i want a piece i usually buy.i have some that are considered worthless but I like the piece. I have some high priced stuff that i do not like ( USUALLY GETS TRADED OFF) The price should not be the main reason to buy.I have a small adjustable wrench that has been in my pocket for twenty years.It is my worry stone. It has been to weddings ,christenings,funerals and shopping. I just like the way it feels.
bob w.
Well, let's have a look, it must have mucho shibui. And, I bet it's shiny.