Tool Talk
Wrench Forum => Wrench Forum => Topic started by: Mel Larsen on August 02, 2012, 06:50:53 PM
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I bought a Proto box/open ended wrench at a yard sale that is marked" 5/16 1210-W PROTO mfd. U.S.A. 5/16 " BUT it measures 5/8" on both ends. I guess they make mistakes once in a while.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lugnut/IMG_0941.jpg)
Mel
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with the right marketing, you're bound to get at least $2m for that on eprey.
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Often when the wrench part number has a 'W' in it, the wrench is marked for Whitworth sizes...
(5/16 Whitworth is .600 , 5/8SAE=.625)
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Well I joined this forum to learn and today I learned that some crazy guy named Whitworth doesn't know how to measure. It's tough enough for us old guys so they don't need to add to the confusion with "Whitworth" I say we outlaw it.
Mel
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I say we outlaw it.
It more or less has been!
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Please google Whitworth and learn about the system. Truth be told, it may have been a better one than what we use now.
The Whitworth thread was the world's first national screw thread standard [1], devised and specified by Joseph Whitworth in 1841. Until then, the only standardization was what little had been done by individual people and companies, with some companies' in-house standards spreading a bit within their industries. Whitworth's new standard specified a 55° thread angle and a thread depth of 0.640327p and a radius of 0.137329p, where p is the pitch. The thread pitch increases with diameter in steps specified on a chart. The Whitworth thread system was later to be adopted as a British Standard to become British Standard Whitworth. An example of the use of the Whitworth thread is the Royal Navy's Crimean War gunboats. These are the first instance of 'mass-production' techniques being applied to marine engineering as the following quotation from the obituary from The Times of 24 January 1887 to Sir Joseph Whitworth (1803-1887) shows:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth)
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Please google Whitworth and learn about the system. Truth be told, it may have been a better one than what we use now.
Well yes, but having wrenches that don't just specify the wrench by the shank size of the bolt, but specify two (or three) different bolt diameters, depending on whether the threads are coarse or fine pitch, would seem challenging on a daily basis. I guess it's like everything else: you'd get used to it. But when the bolt's installed, you can't tell pitch. I like being able to look at a bolt head and grab the right wrench.
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The Austin Healey that I had way back was all Whitworth.
You get used to it.
Have you noticed that most new cars today are metric?
Same with almost anything that has a lot of bolts, oops,,,"fasteners" on it.
The time is passing,,,,,,,,
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Here is a King Dick (A UK name, don't you know) Whitworth-based wrench. The 7/16 W opening is 13/16", and the 1/2 W is 15/16". It's more-or-less the same size and shape as an old Dodge "4" or "5" wrench. I have placed a Dodge "5" (1"x15/16") wrench below it for comparison. I suppose the King Dick was also intended for general automotive use use on English cars and trucks back in the day (1940 - 1970).
I hope one of the experts on this site gives us a better estimate of the ages of these plain Jane wrenches.
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Its not just Dodge but all CPDD vehicles between 1929 and 1936 or so. Was part of the original toolkits but specific models, specific years, specific lines of trim
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My boss was trained by men who used USS standard wrenches. Even though I knew tools he asked for a 3/8" and I would have to give him the 9/16", he really thought everyone knew the conversions right off the top!
I learned the common conversions before I learned that it was a retired standard from the 20's.
Oddly he slowly changed out all his older tools for new Wurth stuff and now asks for the closest metric by head size for SAE and metric applications.
All this learning curve caused me to become a collector of alternative marked DOE tools when I find them. Early metrics seem to be the biggest challenge and then Whitworth. I also have 3 Eagle Brand marked in SAE A/F and SAE decimal. First I've seen of that and I'm lucky enough to have 3 of a set already. Seems to have been a British sort of standard that faded out fast.
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CPDD?
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Here is a link for the king dick wrench.
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/tools/tf111.htm
Thanks,
Kirk
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The Austin Healey that I had way back was all Whitworth.
Have you noticed that most new cars today are metric?
I was in the second grade when they came to my school one day and announced,
"The Unites States is going to go to the metric system."
Lately though, for the first time, I have begun to be able to "think" in metric. At least some.
The trick for me is to remember something of a known measurement. I wear a 4mm ring. Its easy to look down and guesstimate other small measurements just from that.
The 10mm wrench has become so universal I can spot one offhand, from a distance.
Several things like that.
I doubt it will ever be like Imperial wrenches where I seldom need to look at the size marking at all.
But I will be grateful to ditch the obnoxious fractions of precision measurement conversions in my head.
Let's see, 1/16 = .064.
Yeah I need 100 of those floating around taking up precious grey matter.
yours Scott
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I picked up some Austin-Healey wrenches. I once bought a new Austin-Healey 3000 MkIII, and I recall these were the kinds of wrenches that came in the car's toolkit. Both wrenches are embossed with the Austin script and the Whitworth sizes on either open end. The smaller wrench has open ends marked 3/8 and 5/16. It is also marked A2. The larger wrench has open ends marked 1/2 and 7/16; these are the same sizes as the ones on the King Dick DOE wrench I posted earlier (above). Though they are Whitworth-sized, both wrenches lack the Whitworth W mark.
I included a photo of the maker's boss on the back of the larger wrench. Perhaps someone can decipher it for the rest of us.
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CPDD?
Chrysler Plymouth Dodge Desoto
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Oh,good, I was afraid it was some new wrench collecting disorder like WADD* or something, oh, wait, it *is* a wrench disorder....sigh
*Wrench Attention Deficit Disorder - The inability to concentrate on general tasks when old rusty wrenches are nearby.
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1930, is Essex part of that mix also?
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1930, is Essex part of that mix also?
I dont know anything about Essex, why would you ask though?
I went back to edit my original post, I wrote not part, I guess I must have been going in a different direction and then made a R turn
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Essex automobiles, were part of the H-E-T mfg. Hudson, which goes back to the early part of the century and continued on til 1958, Essex was the lightweight automobile, built by Hudson, then Terraplane was brought out in the 1930s, full of innovation, more powerful, all steel, and the one I rode in was a tight, impressive car.
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Essex was part of a grouping, as John pointed out, but I was not sure of which.
I have read that parts used on the Essex came from or are very similar to DB family cars of the same era. Much like early Ford T's used some DB parts from the factory. Axles and such.
As I have no personal experiences working on any car earlier than 1970 I thought it worth the asking.
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I understood what the Essex was I just was wondering where the correlation between the two was. I have never heard of any interchangeable parts between Essex and D.B.
Wolverine, Night, Hup and more I am sure but never Essex.
BTW the early Model Ts did not use some D.B parts but were in fact all D.B except the glass, tires and a few other things I am not thinking of right now.
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Thank you Sir, cool tidbit of info on the early Fords. I read Mr. Dodge was a 10% investor in Henry's dream at the beginning but never knew much more.
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If it werent for Dodge there may never have been a Ford and if it werent for Ford there may never have been a Dodge. No problem, glad to share
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Now its my turn to share a bit.
My SAE decimal/AF British Eagles and my measly Whitworth stuff.
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Any idea who made the Eagle branded wrenches? (snail?)
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There are no tiny markings or odd letters or numbers on them. I too was hoping for a neat logo or a link to a factory, but alas, nothing.
I have no idea if they are similar to any other Brits as I see so few here. Maybe the British members here are better informed?