Tool Talk
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 1930 on August 12, 2012, 10:55:57 AM
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I am ready to wire in this new compressor motor. I need help with this. There are 4 wires coming out of motor, a red, yellow black and a blue.
I have my 220V black, white and ground coming out of the wall.
My compressor needs to spin in a clockwise direction.
Anybody here know what gets connected where, If one were to google the schematic its easy to get one but I have no idea how to read it and dont want to burn this up guessing. thanks
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First, let's get a handle on the clockwise direction thing, it depends which end of the motor you are looking at ;P
'Standard' rotation is COUNTER clockwise, when looking at the end of the motor OPPOSITE the shaft.
'Opposite' rotation is the other way....
If you are looking at the compressor pully, standing on that side of the compressor, and you want it to rotate counterclockwise as you are looking at it, you want the motor to rotate 'Standard'
So you want to connect
Line_Red to Blue+Red
Line_Black to Yellow+Black
I am assuming you ran red and black wires for 230Volt, you don't use a neutral, but you should have a ground.
To reverse it from that, exchange the Red and Black motor leads.
This is a single voltage motor with no voltage taps of externaly accessable switches, so it's more or less idiot proof, the worst that you can do is make it not work at all ...
Incidently, the leads shouls also be numbered 1 through 4...
Don't forget to attach a ground lead to the thing...
Be aware that this motor can draw in excess of 30 amps overloaded, ideally it should have a motor protector on it, but fusing it for 20 amps or so should work for a compressor if you have unloaders (100% load current is 21 amps, start current is going to be several times that)
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Rusty I was just logging on to report alot of this stuff that you mentioned here above I was able to find with some searches on-line. I will have to go back now and re-read what you have posted but I am sure you have me going in the right direction.
I was hoping to finally fire this thing up today and maybe now I can. Thanks for the quick and thorough response
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By the way I have always wondered what this symbol means that seems to be used here quite often ......;P
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I am looking at the backside of the motor when I am standing in the front of the compressor. In other words the pulley is on the backside
There is a sticker on the belt guard that indicates a clockwise direction. I see this sticker once again if I were looking at the front of the compressor, again the shaft/pulley being on the backside
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Im an idiot when it comes to electrical so if you could confirm, I am guessing that I am going to connect the 1 and the 5 together and the 4 and the 8 together and it does not matter which I connect my black or white 220 power source to.
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I am guessing that I am going to connect the 1 and the 5 together and the 4 and the 8 together and it does not matter which I connect my black or white 220 power source to.
Correct (for Opp rotation)
It does not matter which of the 2 line wires you use for which motor connection (black/white I guess you are using)
(however, to make it easier for the next guy,who will probably be you, I'd keep black to black...)
I would also recommend starting it up the first time without the belt on it....
(Because rotating the motor the wrong way doesn't hurt anything, but that may not be true for the compressor...just to be extra safe...)
Also, don't take this the wrong way,but, I *assume* you have the motor bolted down....cause it's a big motor, and bad things happen otherwise....
(I have seen guys test a motor on the floor...with interesting results...)
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Thanks again Rusty, yes it is bolted down and it has been all put together with belts ect. I had a heck of a time getting tension on both belts, dont know why so I ended up placing my porta-power between the compressor and the motor and giving it a bit of a squeeze ( pushing the motor away from the compressor ) so their was tension on both.
Prob. a no no but again I couldnt seem to get the belt deflection correct any other way.
I have seen these motors mounted on adjustable beds that would move by turning a bolt on one end. Sorta the same concept as my porta but either way I do not have one of these.
Dont want to burn any bearings out.
Might re-think this before I start it up which now wont be until maybe next weekend. Not enough daylight hours here, especially with the rain
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Finally have it running sorta, I know I did not need to use this box, I believe it had something to do with the 3 phase motor I removed and I could have just directly wired straight into motor and it would have made life easier but I had it and I didnt want to throw it away and it saved me from having to buy extra wire.
The problem I am having though is that the compressor will not kick on unless I keep the small square button pushed in at the top in the center.
Any idea what this is all about, there is a small brownish colored button that is depressed at the bottom when the cover is in place and the compressor runs with or without this being pushed in.
Gotta be a way to keep this circuit closed without sticking a toothpick in the opening of that upper button.
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That thing with the button appears to be a contactor. You need one with a three phase motor so the pressure switch on the compressor can turn the motor on and off. I assume you wired the pressure switch in series with the motor????
What does it say on it for 'coil voltage' ?
Also, you have your machine grounded through a fusable link..BAD BAD BAD!
What is that ground attached to? Neutral? Probably also bad....
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RUH ROH Dont know anything about wiring the pressure switch with the motor but it takes 6 minutes to fill and shut off ( versus the 16 minutes ( at least ) that my old compressor took) and shuts off at 200 psi and kicks back on at 150, thats with something wedged in that switch deelio.
Where would I find the coil voltage and why is that important?
I dont see where there is a fusible link, lower right corner of picture the ground wires are inserted into the copper connector which is bolted directly to the compressor as a ground.
Is this contactor than not working as it should, why would I need to depress it to make it make contact and flow the juice from the top bands thru to the bottom and then on down over to the switch and into the motor?
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The contactor isn't working because the coil (which pulls in the little button) isn't connected to anything as far as I can see in your picture.
See the lable on the right side of the box? (The one that says read before wiring LOL), under it it says 'coil', that's to tell you what screws yto use for the coil)
There are a pair of terminals on it somewhere , you are supposed to supply power to the coil through a pressure switch (and on some compressors through a low oil p cutout) to activate the coil which in turn makes the motor run.
If you have the pressure switch wired in somewhere else (sounds like it) you can just jump the coil to the power to make it always on, tho it's kinda a weird thing to do...(from the web site, furnas/siemens contactor 42bf- is 220v , but I can't read the number in your photo all that well)
>I dont see where there is a fusible link
Those 3 tin colored vertical strips of metal with a screw at each end are thermal motor fuses ...
Oh, and the little red rectangle button is the cover safety switch, because you are pushing the contactor in by hand, it's not going to do anything, but when you have it wired right, it prevents the contactor from operating with the door open.
The ground should NEVER pass through a contactor, and it shouldn't be on a lug with an insulated wire...
Is the right most wire a ground or a neutral?
If it is a ground, it should pass through the box, and be attached to the box, not to anything on the contactor assembly.
If it is a neutral, it shouldn't be attached to the box, and you need *another* wire for a neutral, but, I don't think you need a neutral for this thing, it's 220, with nothing else that needs 110 , so you don't need a neutral to get 110, but you *do* need a ground somewhere....
(Confused yet? Sorry, I don't know how ot make this simple....:(
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The contactor isn't working because the coil (which pulls in the little button) isn't connected to anything as far as I can see in your picture.
See the lable on the right side of the box? (The one that says read before wiring LOL), under it it says 'coil', that's to tell you what screws yto use for the coil)
There are a pair of terminals on it somewhere , you are supposed to supply power to the coil through a pressure switch (and on some compressors through a low oil p cutout) to activate the coil which in turn makes the motor run.
If you have the pressure switch wired in somewhere else (sounds like it) you can just jump the coil to the power to make it always on, tho it's kinda a weird thing to do...(from the web site, furnas/siemens contactor 42bf- is 220v , but I can't read the number in your photo all that well)
>I dont see where there is a fusible link
Those 3 tin colored vertical strips of metal with a screw at each end are thermal motor fuses ...
Oh, and the little red rectangle button is the cover safety switch, because you are pushing the contactor in by hand, it's not going to do anything, but when you have it wired right, it prevents the contactor from operating with the door open.
The ground should NEVER pass through a contactor, and it shouldn't be on a lug with an insulated wire...
Is the right most wire a ground or a neutral?
If it is a ground, it should pass through the box, and be attached to the box, not to anything on the contactor assembly.
If it is a neutral, it shouldn't be attached to the box, and you need *another* wire for a neutral, but, I don't think you need a neutral for this thing, it's 220, with nothing else that needs 110 , so you don't need a neutral to get 110, but you *do* need a ground somewhere....
(Confused yet? Sorry, I don't know how ot make this simple....:(
The right most wire is a ground, I just passed all three wires thru these contacts and then ran that right contact ( ground ) on down to the lug in the far right corner where I have made a ground. ( a that was the ground originally when it had the 3 phase )
Let me get you a better picture so you can hold my hand and tell me which wire goes where to get that coil/switch working properly
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Second and third picture down at least you can maybe barely see that there are two lugs up on top just behind where my incoming power is coming down.
Originally they did have some much smaller gauge wire ( maybe 18 gauge ) running down to the terminals on the left side that you can see. Let me get a better picture I guess of what I mean
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Try this one
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ok, i finally found the specs on that thing, it's rather old ;P
There was a wire factory installed from the top left terminal, behind the 3 heavy wires, down to the top terminal on the side of the bottom block. The top 2 terminals are the contactor coil. The bottom left side terminals are the switch terminals, and probably a cutout for the motor protector (The product specs kinda suck and don't describe the protector, other than it's a bi-metal type).
I suppose the first question is, what is the rating on the pressure switch?
If it is good for 30 amps, you don't really need the contactor for anything, you could just move the 3 feed wires to the other side of it and use only the motor protector.
If it is not rated for 30 amps, you should wire it so it uses the contactor, otherwise you will eventually burn it up..
normal wiring for it would be:
(small wires)
Factory jumper wire from top left terminal, to left side, top terminal.
wire from top right terminal to one of the feed wires. (to supply the power for the coil)
wire from the left side, bottom terminal to the pressure switch top right terminal.
wire from pressure switch bottom right terminal back to the Other feed wire.
No other wires on the pressure switch
Wires that used to go through the pressure switch, now go straight to the motor.
Technically, you are supposed to have a disconnect switch on this thing also, unless it plugs in.
Now..tell me what the ground is connected to, before you electrocute yourself ;P
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I need to look this over further and may have some more questions for clarification but thanks so much for your time. It is nice that you are able to find information like this that might otherwise not put too use.
The ground as I mentioned from the feed goes into the box, is joined onto the lug at the far right, comes out the bottom lug on the far right, ( when there is contact made ) goes directly over to another lug in the far right lower corner of this box where a bolt passes thru the lug and is screwed directly into the compressor motor base which is the welded onto the top of that air tank.
Dont know if it was necessary but I ran a third wire ( ground wire ) from the base of the little contact box ( farthest right little box where I am assuming the pressure switch is mounted as well if I am correct ) back over and up into the same lug that was just mentioned farthest right lower corner of this same switch box that we were just discussing.
You say ...........it's rather old............can you give at least a ballpark clarification. I was thinkig mid or late eightes, thought I had already confirmed that but that info now eludes me
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>can you give at least a ballpark clarification. I was thinkig mid or late eightes,
Only vaguely, probably before 1979, but possibly only before 1996 (after 96 it would say siemens on it)
It was listed as discontinued in some places, but not others, so it probably means only certain variations of it were obsoleted...
The ground should come into the box, go under the copper lug, and go from the copper lug out to the compressor. no jumper to anything on the contactor, no ground connected to anything on the contactor. The lug is bolted to the box, that grounds the box, that's *all* you ground in the box.
I am assuming it is really a ground in your feed (goes back to the panel, and is connected to the ground bar, with all the bare wires on it, not to the neutral bar, with all the white wires on it...)
(Note: If you have an older panel , you might have both the white and bare wires on the same bar, in which case it doesn't matter)
It is supposed to be green colored wire btw ;P
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Well Rusty I finally got around yesterday to finishing that wiring on the comp. I had to play around with it a bit. I hooked a jumper wire from the top left rear lug in the back to the top front left lug and the right rear top lug to the right front top lug and it energized that switch to pull it in and it turns on and shuts off as it should fine.
There is a pretty good buzzing noise that I can hear. When the comp. hits its 200 psi it automatically shuts off and that is the time I can hear the buzzing noise. I am able to see that it is the switch ( the same one that I just energized ) it is vibrating slightly I guess. I am assuming this is normal?
I would like to put a separate on/off switch somewhere other than throwing the circuit breaker in my shop which is how I have it wired now to turn on and off. I will prob. throw one in there somewhere.
In hindsight I maybe didn't go the right way with this comp. purchase either. If you figure I paid 600 bucks for it than had to buy a 4 hundred dollar motor since I did not have the 3 phase plus I really don't have any idea how many hours its clocked or how well its been maintained you can see that maybe I just should have spent the 2 gees ( not that I had it ) for a brand new one.
I do however feel that maybe it is a better built comp since it is quite a few years old so that makes it a little better and I would not be surprised with the little that I will ever use it compared to its potential I prob. wont ever have to buy another so all in all I am not disappointed but maybe just would have asked for a better deal in its initial purchase price had I known what it was gonna take to get it usable again.
The thing sat a long time with air in it after being disconnected and transported to the sellers house where it sat outdoors and so I am thinking that maybe this is why I am getting sludge as thick as soup out my drain line still.
I have run it and drained it a few time and yet still the rusty sludge ( no offense ) is coming out. I guess maybe I should look for a removable plug somewhere, I guess theres gotta be a way to open up the tank and rinse it out?
Anyway thanks again for the help
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Buzzing is probably a loose coil in the contactor, happens when they get old, won't hurt anything, just annoying...
(If you had wired the pressure switch through the contactor, it would be off when the compressor stopped, and not making noises and wasting electricity ;P
That is also where an on off switch could go, tho, ideally, you should have a real disconnect type switch near the compressor...
>maybe I just should have spent the 2 gees
You got out for half price and a bit of sweat, not a bad deal.
Is the sludge oily? Or just rusty?
Sitting with air in it didn't hurt it, after some point it used up all the oxygen in that air and stopped rusting, leaving water in it wasn't ideal tho...
Keep blowing it down, it will clean out after a while, also, keep in mind, if it is the least bit humid out, you are also adding water running the compressor....that's why you drain it daily ;P
(The shop compressor here, which is in very good condition, and fairly well maintained, nevertheless drools rusty sludge when drained, it is the way it is....steel + water=rust+sludge)
>maybe it is a better built comp since it is quite a few years old ...
I like that logic, seeing as Rusty is quite a few years old.....
Curtus made very good compressors for years, that thing should make you happy for years...
(Until you blow up the plastic airline and make shrapnel grenades)
>When the comp. hits its 200 psi
Using pipe rated 150PSI....
Personally, unless you really need 200psi for something, I would set the thing at 150, or at most 175, it's a lot easier on the compressor and regulators....
Now...have you actully *done* anything with that compressed air yet? Changed a tire? Sandblasted the misses coffee table? Dusted something off?
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I am going to make you a drawing of how I wired it Rusty, you can maybe tell me a better way, maybe a way to wire that pressure switch as you mention. Still not even sure where the heck that switch is!
You said the two words that make my blood boil ..........wasting electricity............Might be opening a can of worms but I have no choice but to try at least now, and anyway if its going bad than I am sure it being constantly buzzing like that will only shorten its life even more.
Might be you mean to by-pass this buzzer box ( thats what Ill call it from now on ) and if thats the case than Ill just wait for it to go bad before I do anything. Hate to get rid of it since it is there and I was able to use the original wiring I.E I didnt have to buy any new
Maybe you have already told me, my reading comprehension is pretty poor so pictures always work best with me.
Just a thought, many ( and I mean alot ) of bodyshops here in Fl ( of course just the independents ) use PVC pipe and run the same pressure. I have only seen one pipe blow and it just happened to be the one right behind me as I was working.
Startled me but that was all, just broke out the glue and a sleeve and no problem done. It had been there from what I was told 30 plus years anyway. My point is that I am not too worried about it, short PVC section within the room that houses comp and from there is goes underground ( under a pile of gravel ) over to my workshop and then an even shorter line of PVC inside the shop. Rubber hose from there which by the way is a way another shop I worked at was plumbed, all rubber hose and that hose had been there again a long time.
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1930,
PVC is an absolute no no for air lines. One of the mfgs. of PVC even mentioned it in some of their literature. That being said I know it is used a lot with no problems. We used it in our shops for years until the following happened.
We built a new store in West Palm Beach some years ago that had a separate little building for the compressor, and as we had always done, used PVC for the air line. Had a piece of hose from the compressor over to the 1 1/2 PVC on the wall, then underground into the main shop. SOP was to turn off the compressor every night. Well as will happen, one night this wasn't done. The next day when we came in there was plastic shrapnel every where. It had dented the starter box to the point that it had to be replaced. Had anyone been in there when this exploded, they would have been seriously hurt.
Apparently this was one of those "perfect storm" events. The pressure switch failed, the relief valve didn't relieve, and the circuit breaker didn't trip. The weakest link then became the PVC pipe.
If I had a compressor in an area where I was working I would not use PVC. Copper pipe is a little more expensive but will not shatter like PVC.
And as Rusty pointed out, use a circuit breaker that is rated at less than the maximum amperage draw of the motor. You want it to trip!!! if there is a malfunction. Also make sure your relief valve works. It may be all crudded up and won't work. Cheap insurance is to get a new one. They aren't all that expensive. Get one that is rated a little higher than your max working pressure. And again, as Rusty said, keep your working pressure down to a reasonable level. Unless there is some reason you need 300 psi, 150-175 psi would be more reasonable. An added benefit of the lower pressure is that it takes less electricity.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Mike
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Also, don't take this the wrong way,but, I *assume* you have the motor bolted down....cause it's a big motor, and bad things happen otherwise....
(I have seen guys test a motor on the floor...with interesting results
I have a 6 inch scar on the inside of my leg from a electric motor climbing up it. bob w.
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Thanks for the input
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I am trying to dial down the air pressure, there is a manual for this comp. avail on-line but I cannot see where it mentions setting the pressure.
Through fumbling around with the two little screws at the rear of this gizmo ( one is plastic and the other steel ) I have been able to get it dialed down so that it kicks back on at approx 100 pounds but again will not shut off till it reaches 150.
Still seems a little high for me, anyone here recognize this switch and maybe give me clear directions on the proper procedure?
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Many of those switches only have one adjustment. (called 'fixed differential') You set the min-max range by buying the switch with that range. The single adjustment sets only the pressure mid point...
Also, those switches come in different pressure ranges, they are not adjustable over an unlimited range, for example you may have a 135-175 pound switch, if so, that's all you are gonna get....
It should tell you that on the cover somewhere....
It is almost impossible to ID a switch looking at it, only the cover is different, everyone has copied the basic design for decades...
(A new one only costs about $30 or so, unless it needs an unloader (tubing connected to the bottom in addition to the one going to the tank))
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Thanks Rusty, maybe I can steal the switch off my old comp. I believe it may have been a lower setting.
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starting to sound like my backhoe project - an expensive education :)
Seriously - my hat off to you for you commitment to this compressor. I know how expensive a proposition it can get to be. I've been working to get the IR back going in the shop - hydrotested the tank $$$$ - had the electric driver replaced $$$$- reworked the compressor sightglass $$$$ - hours cleaning melted plastic where someone thought cooling the compressor with a buck of water on top was good - now the 600V starter has taken a dump (hanging) - and it is obsolete running nearly $250 for a replacement.
I paid $25 (new) for the 6hp 60 gallon Coleman blackmax I have in my garage. It has never asked for anything other than draining daily and oil. It has never failed to serve my needs.
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Many of those switches only have one adjustment. (called 'fixed differential') You set the min-max range by buying the switch with that range. The single adjustment sets only the pressure mid point...
Also, those switches come in different pressure ranges, they are not adjustable over an unlimited range, for example you may have a 135-175 pound switch, if so, that's all you are gonna get....
It should tell you that on the cover somewhere....
It is almost impossible to ID a switch looking at it, only the cover is different, everyone has copied the basic design for decades...
(A new one only costs about $30 or so, unless it needs an unloader (tubing connected to the bottom in addition to the one going to the tank))
I fiddled around a bit more this A.M with that switch and I was able to dial it down to kicking on at 90 and kicking off at 125. It seems much happier now and that is where I believe I will leave it.
Still havent found out the purpose of the black plastic screw, seem to make no difference either way.
I think Im gonna leave it wired as is also, it dosent seem to be humming nearly as loud and so I better not try and fiddle with it further. Thanks again for all your help.