Tool Talk

Hi everyone - I recently started building a collection of old wrenches, hand tools and old things in general. My wife and I restored an old farm homestead recently, and we have discovered all kinds of great little finds throughout that have added to our modest collection.

I went to an auction in Indy recently and there was a National wrench that I was unfortunately able to obtain. I liked it on its own, but I was especially intrigued at the possible connection to the National Motor Vehicle Company. The original manufacturing building for the NMVC is now owned by a friend of mine, and we're restoring the brand to live as a modern day site for innovation, design and collaboration.

I have also heard buzzings about a National Plow Company that could have been the source of this wrench. The trademark sure looks an awful lot like the vehicle company, although trademarks in those days were a story all their own.

Here is a photo of a similar, if not identical, wrench:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nhankamer/4110604732/

Here's a look at National Motor Vehicle Company info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Motor_Vehicle_Company

Anyway, if there is anyone out there who can shed some light on what company would have made this wrench, that would be most helpful. I enjoy the forum and am happy to be introduced to these things at my ripe old age of 31.

Thanks!

Bet the owner of that wrench in the first pic will speak up.

I owned that wrench for a short time, then sold it to a Tool Talk member. It was sold to me as a National Plow wrench by a member of the Southwest Tool Collectors Association.

Unfortunately, that was before the crash and I can't recall who it sold to! I hope the buyer is still here and will pipe in soon.

Interestingly, Rathbone makes no mention of a National Plow Co.  He shows 4 wrenches under the National heading.  But no hint of a National Plow.  The identical wrench Papaw sold is shown along with 3 others.  Sure looks like it could be for a National car rather than a plow, at least based on the logo.  What seems strange is that it appears to be a cast wrench rather than a forging like most of the auto wrenches.

Mike

Thanks for the help in figuring this out, guys. I was able to find mention of a National Plow Company in Google's Book directories, although information was quite vague. My favorite, though, is this reference in the 1867 Annual Report of the Indiana State Board of Agriculture:

http://books.google.com/books?id=I7wwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=%22national+plow+company%22&source=bl&ots=GVN2b2aRkN&sig=gneUIJ_7fu8I0mYylJjksgrAv8E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QIkdUY3uJISiyAGCqoDgBw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22national%20plow%20company%22&f=false

It lists the National Plow Company as the "Best plow for muck soil" and notes that they were out of Rochester, NY. I have seen other references to later companies around the turn of the century out of Pittsburgh.

Given that the National Motor Vehicle Company existed from about 1900 to 1924, would it make more sense that a wrench like this would have significantly predated that? You guys know so much more than I do about these matters, and it's a fun little mystery to me. I'll have to admit, I'll sleep a little better if I find out it wasn't directly related to the NMVC! I have a whole new purpose to investigate this, though, if it turns out to be from the National Plow Company and they had that version of the logo first.

There seems to be a link to the Kniffen Mowing machine, National seems to have been making it at some point in time (from a phamphlet). Kniffen Mowinf Machine company was a seperate entity sometime before, and there are interesting hints abiout ties to the ag machine monopoly, and to McCormick, but so far, no logo, and not very much real info, odd....tine frame so far,at least 1880-1901....

There may be more that one national, perhaps more than 2 ....
(Pittsburg National, National of Rochester Pa, National of Rochester NY...odd)

(Kniffen was originally in Worcester)

2c - yes, the wrench looks older than 1900, but that's not an absolute rule ...

On a different track, looking at the logo's on wiki for National Motor, notice as the years go by, the tail of the N gets closer and closer to the top of the L ?  hmm

Thanks Rusty. I'm going to have to do some more digging on the connections with the National Plow Co. With such a general name, and so many companies called "National," it's a tough search! If anyone out there has any imagery of the old plows and their subsequent trademarks, that would be cool to see. I'm starting to warm up to the idea of trying to find one of those wrenches again.

Early trademarks were notoriously inconsistent. Virtually everything was done by hand, and few people had resources to a standardized version of a particular logo for ads manufacturing dies. It's incredible how much different ads in the same year can shift a single logo.

The latest iteration is the one I created for the National Design Factory, which can be seen here:

http://dribbble.com/shots/69215-National-Design-Factory

It's another step in a history that seems to be going back further and further as I learn about potential pre-1900 ties. Thanks again for the input!

On a different track, looking at the logo's on wiki for National Motor, notice as the years go by, the tail of the N gets closer and closer to the top of the L ?  hmm


Wait.... logos on wiki??

how do you find those?


Skip

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Motor_Vehicle_Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Motor_Vehicle_Company)

Just scroll down to the "Advertisements" section.

Pretty sure the National wrench is from The National Welding Equipment Co. Below are pictures of another wrench with the same log and marked "N.W.E. Co.".

Below that is a picture of my National wrench and a similar looking Victor wrench.

Last picture is of the National Equipment Co. trademark logo filed in 1925 found at:

http://www.trademarkia.com/national-71216421.html (http://www.trademarkia.com/national-71216421.html)

I've had this wrench for several years and never been able to identify it. Could it be from The National Motor Vehicle Company? There was also a Newark Motor Vehicle Company but it only lasted two years (1901-1903).

Oh, Sure, Answer a question and ask a harder question ;P


PS: National originally rep'd Rego torches, they are slightly different than Victor's torches, but basicaly similar. Victor advertised that you did not need a wrench to change the torch tip however, so I would expect Victor's wrench to have one less (large) opening...

Would be interesting to find a Rego marked wrench...(Perhaps just 'R'?)

Now you guys got me thnking I might haveo n of these from that stash of colletibles from a couple months ago.  The shape is failair for sure,  the  logo?  We'll see....

DM&FS

It sure looks like the wrench is the National Welding Equipment Company, and I was able to verify a 1925 trademark registration on the US listings as well. The National Motor Vehicle Company went out of business in 1924, and it seems quite possible that the NWEC was highly "influenced" by the NMVC's trademark. For me, this is better news than if the wrench had been from the National Plow Company, which would have pre-dated the car company.

That NMV wrench is nice! What is the size? The National Motor Vehicle Co did have some slab-serif type in some of its advertisements. I don't believe I've seen them use it on any manufactured pieces. Otherwise, they were known for their iconographic style and attention to detail. The cars had round radiators for some time, which made them stand out from other companies. So, I wouldn't be surprised if their wrenches had that sort of iconographic form as well.

They did like to advertise that their cars were for "those who don't want to work on equipment," but I can't imagine that they wouldn't have equipped the cars with a basic set of tools at the time. Seems like that was just standard practice.

I'd love to see other wrenches out there with possible ties. Makes me want to go scour through every nook and cranny of the huge manufacturing building again!

Upon further review... I dug up this photo from my archives of historical items, and I noticed the type across the top of the building. Those are heavy slab serifs on the type that look a whole lot like the NMV on the wrench. No more evidence than that, but does confirm that they used that sort of typography prominently!

Quote from: tadawley on February 15, 2013, 09:34:16 PM
... National Plow Co. With such a general name, and so many companies called "National," it's a tough search!

Search tip: if you put the terms in quotes it will help to eliminate the other companies. Try "National Plow", for example.

Quote from: tadawley on February 17, 2013, 08:47:46 AM
That NMV wrench is nice! What is the size?

It measures 9.75" long with 2 3/16" and 2 7/16" hex openings. I would guess that it is a hub cap wrench.

Yeah, that would make sense for that size of wrench. I know the early hub caps were octagonal, like the one below (it's hard to see, but I have detailed shots of this one in my gallery):

http://www.earlyamericanautomobiles.com/images/autos3106.jpg

Later, they were hexagonal, like Joe Dawson's Indy 500 machine:

http://worldraider.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/usa-2c2b0-18-indiana-indianapolis-el-museo-modelo-national-motor-vehicle-company-1912.jpg

I may just head up to the IMS Museum and ask my pal to measure the hub cap. Would be quite the coincidence if it was one of the measurements. Thanks for helping figure this all out!

Quote from: tadawley on February 17, 2013, 05:19:34 PM
gallery):
I may just head up to the IMS Museum and ask my pal to measure the hub cap. Would be quite the coincidence if it was one of the measurements. Thanks for helping figure this all out!

That would be great if you do get a chance to measure the National's hub caps. Please let me know what you come up with. A photo of the cap if possible would also be appreciated.