Tool Talk
What's-It Forum => What's-It Forum => Topic started by: garwein on June 27, 2013, 08:43:20 PM
-
Found this in an old tool box, looks like a giant linoleum knife!
-
That is a billhook, used in agriculture and forestry.
One of our members, Billman, is a collector of those.
Billhook- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billhook (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billhook)
-
Thanks Papaw!
-
Hi
This particular one looks to be a French military pattern (serpe de genie), although similar were used in other European countries. Like many military tools they were often date stamped - many have 1914 to 1918 on them. Many French makers made them, but the most common are Saut du Tarn (Talbot's works also stamped Creuset), Bret and Dorian Holtzer... Theye were used as a pioneer tool, and also supplied for machine gunners to cut camouflage. Also used by communications linesmen to cut back trees and shrubs when laying telephone cables etc..
For more info see the Military Billhooks section on my website: http://billhooks.co.uk/photos-and-other-images/military-billhooks-1/
Trying to post images, but Server Timeout occurs each time.... Then I open the page and find they have posted - so below two images from my archives, Dorian Holtzer at Pont Salomon stamped 1917. Pont Salomon in Isère was a centre of edge tool making - many water powered forges in a number of villages.
See: http://www.valleedesforges.com/ or http://www.museedelafaulx.fr/-Pont-Salomon-et-la-Faulx-.html
-
hmmmmm very interesting maybe I NEED one for my tool/weapon group lol bob w.
-
You guys are outstanding! Thank you for the incredibly informative and fascinating post, Billman.
Some background on me:
I purchased a large toolbox recently with several older pieces in it, including this one. I occasionally go to auctions to buy/resell tools, and often other things I end up finding good deals on. My basement is completely packed with old and new tools, so I'm not allowed to keep anymore, only resell! :)
Anyway, thanks again for the information. I have listed it on Eb@y, but they don't appear to be very common in the States, so we'll see. If anyone here is interested in this piece, please let me know.
-
Post some photos of your collection...
-
I hadn't known of the billhook as a military tool. In the US military a similar tool, or at least similar usage was the Bolo knife. Heavy, made for clearing an area, chopping and cutting made easy. Saw several on the bay just now,,,http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWll-U-S-Military-USMC-Village-Blacksmith-Bolo-Knife-Medical-Corps-Sheath-BOYT-/221201116626?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33809d2dd2....I'd like to own one, but not that bad! Been to dozens of auctions and fleas, but never seen a usable Billhook.
-
Hi - with over 6000 billhooks, a few too many to post (and I have problems adding images anyway, but I'll try adding a few)...
The military billhook has been around since Roman days - used as tool to cut brushwood for shelters and fires, and later (post gunpowder) to cut wood to make gabions to a) surround gun emplacements, b) repair holes in walls made by cannon shots. Hence billhooks were common in the USA during both the Revolutionary and Civil War periods, and genuine ones from these periods do exist (together with lots of sold as being of this period, but actually much later or imports from Europe). It was a tool brought over by many European immigrants, but appears to have almost disappeared in North America in favour of the axe (it is still common in Mexico and South America). The Collins Axe Company offered one, but those that I have seen were stamped made in Germany (or made by their factory in Mexico)
The bolo was not the only US military tool, the Woodman's Pal, a sort of billhook, invented by Frederick Ersham in 1941, became adopted by the US Army Signal Corps during WW2, and in the USMC became designated the LC-14B Survival tool - (it is still being made and sold in the USA).
Below a few tools found in France in 2010, showing the diversity of shapes and sizes that can be seen in most European countries (5 o'clock in the bottom picture is a French miltary pattern, as above, minus its handle - note the thick tang, allowing it to be mis-used without fear of breaking, e.g. used sideways to hammer in tent pegs)...
-
Thank you for the pix Billman!! Love seeing these even if I can't heft them in my hand.
So, I have a billhook question, and need your advise.
Billhooks were never popular where I live. (the mountains of extreme northern california that hardly anyone knows is here).
People (including me) have tried machetes for the jobs billhooks were designed to do, but they are a dismal, total, failure here.
We have exceedingly tough mountain brush that laughs out loud at a lightweight knife. They just bounce off.
Occasionally you see someone trying a big heavy brush ax, but conditions are usually tight and you don't often have room to swing a 36" handle with a 6 pound head on it. So no one ever uses one for long.
I think (or at least hope) a billhook may be the answer.
How much does the average billhook weigh? How thick is the blade?
I see many are in the 12 to 14" blade length so that sounds right. How much hook would you recommend?
What is up with the pointy spike some of them have on the end?
And how about the square extended poll on the back that some have. Why is that there?
I am not too expert at forging, but I can cut 'n grind like a monster, and want to try making some.
But I don't want to totally reinvent the wheel here and any advise you can spare will be enormously welcome.
thanks Scott
-
Thank you for the pix Billman!! Love seeing these even if I can't heft them in my hand.
So, I have a billhook question, and need your advise.
Billhooks were never popular where I live. (the mountains of extreme northern california that hardly anyone knows is here).
People (including me) have tried machetes for the jobs billhooks were designed to do, but they are a dismal, total, failure here.
We have exceedingly tough mountain brush that laughs out loud at a lightweight knife. They just bounce off.
Occasionally you see someone trying a big heavy brush ax, but conditions are usually tight and you don't often have room to swing a 36" handle with a 6 pound head on it. So no one ever uses one for long.
I think (or at least hope) a billhook may be the answer.
How much does the average billhook weigh? How thick is the blade?
I see many are in the 12 to 14" blade length so that sounds right. How much hook would you recommend?
What is up with the pointy spike some of them have on the end?
And how about the square extended poll on the back that some have. Why is that there?
I am not too expert at forging, but I can cut 'n grind like a monster, and want to try making some.
But I don't want to totally reinvent the wheel here and any advise you can spare will be enormously welcome.
thanks Scott
Check these out, great tools. Used em down in Louisana.
http://www.protoolindustries.net/products/woodmans-pal-military-premium-model-284
-
Just spent half an hour answering this, and accidentally closed the window and lost the lot - wil try again later
-
2nd try, part 1.... (breakfast time, 08:10 in the UK)
In the UK, billhooks were made in blade sizes from 6" to 12", 6" & 7" were generally used for spar making, and are known as spar hooks. The most common sizes were 8" to 10" (blade length is the chord from top to shoulder). Some makers also offered 1/2" sizes... Blades were forged from bar - either laminated (e.g. 'Steelheart' or 'Iron clad') or solid bar, approx 2" x 1/2", but latterly many are stamped from sheet material.
Forged blades vary in thickness from about 5/16" at the spine to 3/16" at the edge, but some patterns e.g. the Tenterdon are much thinner (3/16" to 1/8") or thicker, e.g. the Pontypool pattern (also used as the military pattern - 3/8" at the spine with a thickened nose). The Monmouth pattern has an even thicker, offset nose, up to 3/4" thick to add weight to the tip. Most baldes are double bevelled, but some (e.g. Norfolk or Herts) are single bevelled like a side axe or chisel.
to be continued, it's a nice day and I need to get out and do some work, or my wife will not be happy.....
The square projection on the back is a second blade, like an axe, used for chopping against a block (in French vineyards they chopped against the toe of their wooden clogs (sabots)). The shape and position of this blade varies widely from region to region in France and Italy, and less so in the UK (e.g. Leicestershire, Banbury, Nottingham and Yorkshire patterns). Some billhooks are just designed to cut on a block and have a straight or even convex blade (e.g. Block bill or Herts pattern).
to be continued....
-
part 2 (afternoon tea break - 17.40 in the UK)
It is possible to buy decent second hand billhooks on ebay.co.uk, or ebay.fr (serpes or serpettes) or ebay.it (roncola or pennato) at a reasonable price, but check first of the seller is prepared to send to the USA. Postage costs can double the purchase price, but typically I pay the equivalent of about $40 to $60 including postage. If buying from the UK, go for well known brands such as Elwell, Brades, Harrison, Staniforth, Spear & Jackson - modern ones by Carter and Morris are OK - but beware some new ones have short tangs and cross rivetted handles, and there are lots of Indian/Pakistan/China made ones about...
If you are desperate you can contact me by PM or via my website, and I'll dig out a couple of handleless blades and see what the postage costs are.... If you want to make one by cutting out of sheet, old cross cut or circular saw blades are OK, but a bit thin - you may be able to find some other high carbon steel (e.g. machine knives) that is thicker... I have used old garden spade blades in the past... If using thin steel make the tang as wide as possible i.e. to touch the ferrule, and long enough to peen over after it passes through the handle. I drill the handles, and burn the tang in 90%, allowing the extra10% to compress the wood when the tang is cold (but do NOT quench, let cool slowly and it will remain softer and tougher than the blade). Another idea is to buy an old butcher's meat cleaver, and re-profile that...
-
Thanks so much for that!!
I was thinking along those lines, but had no proof since I'd never handled any in person.
Yes, 5/16" or so at the spine makes total sense. The flyweight tools never work, at least here they don't. People here get confused by jungle tools, where foliage may be dense, but its filled with water so speed and a sharp edge is all that counts. We have really tough hard brush to get though here. Many times you can't snap a twig the size of your little finger with your bare hands. Sometimes its down to 1/2 that! So mass will probably be the magic ticket.
Old cleavers would be good thing to look for, thanks for the hint!! I will start looking harder. Most I see are under 1/8" thick at the spine.
Your wonderfully kind offer of a couple old blades to rework has my heart in my throat.
But I have searched for inexpensive postage across the Atlantic for 40 years, and hardly ever found a ravel in that noose.
We used to at least have "sea mail" in the old days. It was ridiculously slow, but always came though, and it was cheap.
It it seems to have gone completely away now.
Burning in the tang is how I handle many (most) kinds of tools. There is no better way that I ever found.
yours Scott
-
Royal Mail - surface mail - up to 2kg £14.45 - about $22 - double that for air mail
see: http://www.royalmail.com/prices-2013#International Standard
Parcel Force globalvalue prices from £8.95 + VAT (20%) = £10.74 - about $16.50
see: http://www.parcelforce.com/send-worldwide/non-account-services/economy-services
Fedex Economy about £25 - say $38.....
Should get at least 2 or 3 blades in a 2kg package
-
Found on line:
"Revolutionary War era BILL HOOK FASCINE KNIFE A classic utility of the 18th century military engineer in his construction of breastworks and fortifications, this all original fascine (pronounced faseen) knife measuring just over 15 ¾ inches in total length with a heavy hand-forged iron blade. The leather washer grip with rat-tail tang remain intact and solid with period field use wear. A classily shaped blade presents the telltale carbon pocking characteristic of 18th century hand forge and an attractive rich patina with no chips or dings in the edge leave the impression the massive knife remains just as it was used in the time of the American Revolution. Note: The heavy Bill-hook fascine knife was used to clear camp sites of saplings and construct fortifications from the freshly cut foliage. The green saplings were bundled and bound firmly together in five to twelve foot lengths, trimmed square at the ends and called fascines. These fascines were used with large woven tubes also fashioned from saplings and filled with earth to form breastworks for fortification. (see: Valley Forge American Revolutionary War Museum collection.)"
By the American Civil War, three "bills" or fascine knives were issued by the Ordnance Department to each artillery battery. These were standardized weighed two pounds apiece. The 1861 Ordnance Manual give their dimensions:
"Bill-hook, (iron with steel edges) blade, whole length 8.25 inches, width in the middle 8 inches, near the shank, 2.7 inches; thickness, 0.25 inch; hook, 1 inch long; shank 8 inches long; handle (hickory) 7.5 inches long."
Gabions and fascines, their construction and use, are still described in The Elements of Field Fortifications, 1898, by J.B. Wheeler, published for the use of cadets at West Point.
Fascines were additionally used to firm up swampy ground so a gun crew could work their cannon under conditions that would otherwise be too muddy for them to function as well as clearing the front of the gun emplacement for battle.
-
Before anyone goes out and bids on these Revolutionary/Civil War era fascine knives, have a read of the pages on my website - at least three of those currently on offer on that well known auction site are most probably mid to late 19th century, European, in origin.... I have sent messages to most of the sellers, but strangely nil replies....
see: http://billhooks.co.uk/photos-and-other-images/military-billhooks-1/ and especially my notes at http://billhooks.co.uk/photos-and-other-images/military-billhooks-3/
-
Those "facines" can be seen around Benito Mussolini as they were a facist government.
Go check.
-
> I have sent messages to most of the sellers, but strangely nil replies....
You are about do discover how hard it is to tell someone their cherished civil war artifact probably isn't half as old as they think it is ;P
-
The 1861 Ordnance Manual give their dimensions: "Bill-hook, (iron with steel edges) blade, whole length 8.25 inches, width in the middle 8 inches, near the shank, 2.7 inches; thickness, 0.25 inch; hook, 1 inch long; shank 8 inches long; handle (hickory) 7.5 inches long."
a blade 8 1/4" long x 8" wide with a 1" hook must be an odd shaped beast.... is the shank between the handle and the blade?? This is found on some French billhooks from the east of the country... Or does it mean the tang is 8" long?? Hickory is not best for a tanged handle as it is fairly hard - would the handle fitted INTO a socket?? Does the Ordnance Manual give an image???
-
Just checked on line - 3" wide not 8" - that makes more sense... (sadly no image)
-
The 1861 Ordnance Manual give their dimensions: "Bill-hook, (iron with steel edges) blade, whole length 8.25 inches, width in the middle 8 inches, near the shank, 2.7 inches; thickness, 0.25 inch; hook, 1 inch long; shank 8 inches long; handle (hickory) 7.5 inches long."
a blade 8 1/4" long x 8" wide with a 1" hook must be an odd shaped beast.... is the shank between the handle and the blade?? This is found on some French billhooks from the east of the country... Or does it mean the tang is 8" long?? Hickory is not best for a tanged handle as it is fairly hard - would the handle fitted INTO a socket?? Does the Ordnance Manual give an image???
Width in the middle is in fact 3" -- typo on my part. As yet I have found no image with dependable documentation. I'm still researching and hope to have a documented image in the future. The most educated guess is the style of the attached photo of a modern made bill. Museum specimens from the Revolutionary War show a number of variations of this style, and the rather hatchet like edge on the back is more convenient for cutting things to length. The Ordnance Department seems to have liked this kind of expanded utility.
It would be the tang that is 8 inches long -- that's the "shank" described in the Ordnance Manual. Hickory is one of the most preferred woods for most striking tool handles here, and very traditional for us. I have a number of tanged tools handled in oak, which would have no particular advantage over hickory.
With any luck I will eventually find a photo of a documented original, or possibly an Ordnance Department drawing of the dratted thing. So many tools were considered so familiar at the time that nobody thought to draw them. Now they're obscure, sometimes in the extreme.
-
An after thought: The Ordnance Department issued a book titled "Artillery for the US Land Service" in 1849 in response to an order to assemble an "organized system of artillery" from the Secretary of the Department of War in 1839. It had an extensive number of plates illustrating the material, but, unfortunately, the sole copy available, and the sole copy that has been reproduced, does not include the plates. The Library of Congress has a complete set of those plates, but as yet, I have not been able to obtain copies.
At the time this book was printed, almost all the materials used were produced at the Watervliet Arsenal or the arsenal in Washington.
-
the "modern version"
http://www.woodmanspal.com/
I have no REAL use for this but have always wanted one.
-
The two genuine blades from the Parker's Revenge skirmish of 1775 both have a back blade and a socketed handle. Other, reproduction, blades also have a back blade, but the handle is made of two scales rivetted to an extension of the blade (as in knife construction). Tang fitting is very common in Europe, but so are sockets - the ratio is probably about 80% tang/20% socket - the socket tools usually being heavier and more expensive. All European military patterns are tanged, often with a very wide and heavy tang.
Tool handles in the UK are traditionally of ash, but imported hickory from the USA is becoming more popular. In Europe a variety of woods are used, e.g. curly birch in Scandinavia, red beech in France, olive wood in Italy. For a tanged billhook the handle wood can be any hardwood that is relatively easy to shape and drill, and that burns well when a red hot tang is inserted. Ash is used in the UK as it is the offcuts of handle making that were used - I guess in the USA, where hickory is the common handle wood it became the wod of choice by default as well...
It would be good to find examples of the genuine US military billhooks - those from Parker's Revenge are most likely from the British troops who were routed... Curious, because they do not fit the standard British pattern which is single edged and tanged, but as this was not introduced until the 19th century it is likely whoever raised the army in the UK just bought a local pattern from the blacksmiths/edge tool makers in the area. As a result, I guess there was no standard pattern until the 19th century either in the USA or the UK...
-
Thank you for the great information, Billman! Are there any photographs of those from the Parker's Revenge skirmish of 1775? I'm fond of looking at the evolution of tools. Helps me understand the way they worked, and sometimes why they changed.
Hickory here is used for handles of striking tools primarily -- hammers, axes, and that lot. Shovels, hoes, rakes and that lot are almost always given handles made of ash. I find ash a very good wood. I see no real reason for specifying hickory for bill hook handles, but the Ordnance Department had its reasons. Maybe those reasons were as simple as using the off cuts from the handles of striking tools. At the time of the first document listing Ordnance supplied tools, they appeared to be manufactured by the Watervliet Arsenal, so there must be at least a drawing -- somewhere.
It seems that many tools were made to regional standards. Some years ago I was looking at a reprinted 19th Century Sheffield tool catalog -- it offered a variety of bills, all identified by region.
-
Copied from the web, they are available on my website at page: http://billhooks.co.uk/photos-and-other-images/military-billhooks-3/
-
And thank you again, Billman! Studying them now...
-
It seems that many tools were made to regional standards. Some years ago I was looking at a reprinted 19th Century Sheffield tool catalog -- it offered a variety of bills, all identified by region.
In the UK, and much of Europe, regional styles of most tools developed, some of which survived many years, and into the 19th century tool makers' catalogues - we have Exeter and London pattern hammers and turnscrews. It is on the agricultural tools that the greatest variety remained, up to the post war years (mid 20th century) in some cases. Shovels, spades, hoes, axes, billhooks and sickles probably show the greatest variety - some makers listing up to 200 or more regional patterns. One French maker (Talabot from St Juery) in their 1935 catalogue showed over 250 patterns of billhook, and stated they had the patterns for over 2000 more, and would also make any other pattern to order upon receipt of a paper template or drawing... There is a video of French edge tool making, taken at the Bret works in Charavines - a 30 second shot shows the contents of a pattern store - rack upon rack of hoes, each with a paper label attached - there must be thousands of them...
-
So Bob, I have been digging though your exceptionally nice website all morning.
Holy Mackerel! I love it!
But I am even more confused than ever.
I can usually guess at what would constitute an effective tool for my needs. Then hopefully only slight modifications are needed for superior performance. But I am seeing so many possible patterns and sizes my head is spinning.
I am still thinking around 10" or so of very heavy blade, but the amount and degree of hook I simply can't estimate? I see them from 1" to many inches of offset from the straighter part of the blade? Tight, nearly 90 degree curve, to wide sweeping 1/3 of the blade length hooks?
I did see one possible project for you. This blade with the bad handle? I am not sure if you know it, but I make tools for a hobby. Mostly decorated tools. No, I won't make you a super fancy pearl inlaid handle like the museum specimens.
Well actually I can, but not to trade for a couple of old plain blades. :) heh heh
But I can rehandle it very nicely if you like. Then you would have to age it to your tastes.
I also have a small stash of unusual antique kitchen tools and gadgets. (I collect a lot of different things, never could concentrate on a single category)
Easiest way to a man's soul is to find a treasure for the wife, so she will encourage later endeavours... heehehehehe
yours Scott
-
Sadly that nice decorated blade is sitting in an Italian museum, not my collection.... It's shape is similar to the billhooks of the West Country of the UK - large beaks are found on Devon and Dorset patterns. Personally I find a 9" medium weight hook adequate for my needs, although I do also use a 10" from time to time (generally whatever hook is lying to hand and is sharpened and ready to go...). I'll try and get into my shed this week and sort some blades out and take some photos... The UK military hooks are probably the heaviest pattern readily available - personally I do not like them, but it all depends upon a) what you are cutting and b) how long you are using it c) your hand size d) your strength....
Very pleased that you like the website - it's there to pass on information - after 40 years of collecting I have a wealth of knowledge tucked away in my head and my archives - best to share it while I still can.... I also collect many things - the magpie effect.... Back in the 70's I bought an old chapel to convert to a house, and needed building/carpentry tools, so I used to go to the local auctions and buy anything and everything - I have tools for all trades, and have built an extension on the house we now live in - all my own work except the plastering ( I can do it, but am too slow). Also having served an engineering apprenticeship followed by 40 years of teaching craft and design (wood, metal, plastics, etc) and I have a lot of kit.... I also have collected oilcans (gave them to a French friend who collects), corkscrews, tin openers, bottle openers and nutcrackers - and my wife is into kitchenalia and also collects 'cream and green' enamel ware, button hooks and baskets.... Not only is the house full, so are all my sheds and garages - hence building a new one at the moment... We really ought to downsize.... or at least get rid of the hevaier stuff - tractors, stationary engines etc....
-
> We really ought to downsize.... or at least get rid of the hevaier stuff - tractors, stationary engines etc....
hah!, I know a lady that collects pianos, not miniature ones, not the small bar room specials, full sized ton and a half pianos....from one end of the house to the other....
-
I found an Ordnance Department drawing of the bill hook they issued from 1849 and at least through the Civil War. A bit oddly shaped from what I have seen before, but here it is. To the left of the side view is a sectional view, showing the thickness to be .25 inches.
Now to find one!
-
Superb - many thanks. It shows a typical turned handle (double edged bills always have a round handle so it can be turned in the hand to use the back blade - a caulked handle would be uncomfortable - and unsafe- to use) - this one grooved for grip (like a butcher' cleaver - rarely found on billhooks), a 1" long ferrule and an overlong handle at 7 1/2" (standard size in the UK is 6").
Double edged hooks like this are known as broom hooks, are are common in the Midland's counties of England (Leicestershire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire, Nottinghamshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire and Yorkshire). This particular pattern however, has more in common with French and Italian tools than English ones, as the back blade is closer to the tip of the tool..
-
For comparison some Italian models:
-
Scott, have dug out my box of unhandled blades and photographed some of them. Will download and post when I have a few more minutes to spare..
-
Finally...
-
WOW! what a collection!!
-
Oh this is so weird.
How did you know I was carving handles today?
Here I am carving octagonal handles by hand.
Sure I can do it by machine and make them perfy perfect, but today I wanted real hand carved like you can't fake with machines.
Bob, these blades?
They --all-- look great to me from here!
yours Scott
-
Nice work! Hand carved for what tool?
-
Most (but not all) single edged UK billhooks tend to have a caulked handle, i.e. assymetrical, with an offset to prevent it slipping out of the hand. Double edged ones usually have turned, round handles, as the handle needs to be able to be used with either blade. Octagonal handles like the ones you've made, Scott, are often found on carpenters' firmer chisels - and on billhooks from the Balkans, especially those from Croatia... see: http://billhooks.co.uk/edge-tool-making-and-makers/handles/
-
Calked handle? Nice name. Quick and simple. I like it.
It would be called a pistol grip handle here. Same meaning, extra words, baaaaaaaaad.... heeheh
In an ax they call it a fawns foot, the offset knob to keep the tool in your hands.
But that is a slightly different shape.
Carving a billhook handle would only mean leaving one side thicker at the end.
Make a hook to catch your hand out of it, so it won't slip as easy.
When you are freehand carving you can bend a whole handle a little if you want, or make it straight as a string. I could do a swelling right in the middle. Anything I want.
The handles I made yesterday are for a vise. I am making a vise to hold vertical work, like for dovetailing etc.
Actually I am re-making the vise.
I built the original 40 years ago. My first woodworking vise, ever! When I moved I saved the hardware, and still had it laying around. I decided it was finally time to put it back together and get back to using it. I have missed it on occasion.
I am updating it some. Of course, heh.
yours Scott