Tool Talk
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: fflintstone on July 15, 2013, 08:08:35 AM
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Paging Aunt Phil! We all know using molasses chelation to remove rust is a great way to go. I have a few questions though. I have heard to use a 9:1 or 10:1 ratio of water to molasses, is there any benefit to using a slightly stronger ratio? Does the chelation process give off a gas? IE can you put it in a sealed container? (It stinks)
I acquired an old steel belted cooler for free at a yard sale and I am going to make it my “molasses chelation tank” I have a reed vice that is froze up solid, and all my attempts to free it have come up short. It sat in a used oil/solvent mix for 6 months, and a vinegar bath for over a week, I have pummeled it with a hammer to no avail. I am going to try the molasses bath but I am not holding out much hope. I will use heat as a last resort after I get a full oxygen tank.
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nobody done any molasses rust removal?
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Never used molasses but used white vinegar. White vinegar is stronger than regular. Put rusted tools in vinegar overnight then with gloves brush them with a plastic brush. Put them back in vinegar to remove more rust. This really works well when the temperature is hot out. I do this only outside. I remember a few times the tool felt very hot from the acid eating it. Be careful not damaged your tools. Also must dry the tool immediately and coat it with something or it will rust right away. I coat it either with a clear varnish coat or mineral oil.
I'm gonna try lemon juice someday. heard it works great and doesn't smell as bad.
Skylab
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here's a few web links discussing removing rust with molasses
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106663 (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106663)
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/53656-molasses-and-rust-removal.html (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/53656-molasses-and-rust-removal.html)
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106663 (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106663)
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I have used vinegar as well. I also used molasses once. I can definitely say vinegar is much quicker but great care must be taken to neutralize the acid or it will come back to bite you in the rear. The molasses is supposed to be gentile.
Just wondering if someone had experience with something that has rusted together like the vise I am trying to rescue.
Thanks for the ford link but I can’t go to garage journal, they have my IP address blocked.
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Fred, it's a 7 to 1 dilution ratio for liquid cow molasses from the feed store, not sure on dilution for the bagged semidry product.
There's a decent representation of the process over on http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rust-removal-miracle-molasses-204391.html.
Stinks is such an ugly word, possibly accurate, but ugly none the less. Dave Koffer was running about a 1000 gallon Lasses Tank in Georgia last I talked to him. He had it set up in sort of a carport structure the wind could blow thru. Seem to recall Dave mentioning a lot of flypaper strips too.
Seems I recall something about fermenting Lasses to make something called RUM. You can bet this juice outgasses, but then, don't we all.
Pay particular attention to the COMPLETELY SUBMERGED part of the discussion.
Depending on where you live Cow Lasses might be fairly cheap.
When you're done chelating that Lasses is good for ice melting in winter, and you can load tractor tires with it too.
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I have used molasses and don't really like it. If you have a short attention span, it can hurt your results. It will eat your work up if leave it too long in the solution. You really need to keep an eye on it.
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I have used molasses and don't really like it. If you have a short attention span, it can hurt your results. It will eat your work up if leave it too long in the solution. You really need to keep an eye on it.
I know vinegar does that but the molasses is not supposed to do that, in fact that is supposed to be the one thing for molasses is that it is supposed to not attack base metal.
Could you please elaborate on your experience?
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The world of Internet Rust removal has firmly planted itself in Rusty's giant binary cesspool Flintstone.
Funny part is I've read a lot from the acclaimed Experts on the web, and the one thing I'm sure of is most of them are 1 trick ponies who make a huge splash on the web and crawl off before they can be pinned down on any of their theory.
For 20 + years I worked with a man who was near insane in his dedication to developing the perfect rust removal system. I watched 8 years spent on a filtering system for the tanks that electrplate rust off one object and most often onto an electrode before the flter and media were stumbled onto. 2 men stood looking at what was happening and said DOH, we knew that, why the hell didn't we use it before.
Anybody showing an "electrolosys" rust removal process with a layer of scum on top of the tank and cleaning electrodes ain't in the ballgame, because state of the art is a tank you can see to the bottom through the electrolyte, run 24/7 and not clean electrodes. The people who know what they are doing damn sure ain't looking into a camera and posting crap on UTube.
Off top of my head I can think of probably 7 rust removal processes, acids that do the job range from muriatric to citric and phosphoric. Of that group, only phosphoric will not attack good steel. There really aren't any great secrets in the acid processes, unless you believe EvapOrust is a SECRET formula. iT'S CITRIC ACID! Same citric acid as you find in molasses t a higher concentration.
The problem with citric comes when the rusty object isn't completely submerged. There can be problems with container reactions too.
Lasses chelates rust to dust. Lasses contains citric acid, and if you leave steel in lasses long enough, the citric will eat your steel.
Were I playing with a vise I'd buy a bag of citric, rig a coil of black pipe to heat it, and circulate hot acid around the drowned vise, checking results twice a day. It'll get in gaps faster than lasses, and draw less flys. Then again, I ain't an Inturdnet xspert.
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Always a pleasure to read your commentary AP.
I was unaware that molasses contained citric acid. And after some research I am not convinced it has it to start with, but it is huge quantities to produce citric acid thru fermentation.
I did purchase molasses at my favorite feed store yesterday for $4.99 a gallon.
I will be starting an experiment with some fire wrenches and the vise this weekend.
My guess is a packet of yeast might cause expedience of the fermentation, but another time maybe.
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You won't need to add yeast, the tank will pull yeast out of the air.
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Ahh, but will it be rum yeast , or bread yeast? LOL
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more info than you need to know.
Aspergillus niger
A. niger is cultured for the industrial production of many substances. Various strains of A. niger are used in the industrial preparation of citric acid (E330) and gluconic acid (E574) and have been assessed as acceptable for daily intake by the World Health Organisation. A. niger fermentation is "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) by the United States Food and Drug Administration under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.[8]
Many useful enzymes are produced using industrial fermentation of A. niger. For example, A. niger glucoamylase is used in the production of high fructose corn syrup, and pectinases are used in cider and wine clarification. Alpha-galactosidase, an enzyme that breaks down certain complex sugars, is a component of Beano and other products that decrease flatulence. Another use for A. niger within the biotechnology industry is in the production of magnetic isotope-containing variants of biological macromolecules for NMR analysis.
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Why is it Rusty always goes all off kilter about rust removal threads?
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Started the process last night with the vise and a metric shit ton of fire wrenches. About to head out to check the overnight progress.
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One week update:
Well first off there is disgusting foam on top of the molasses brew with mold growing on the foam. YECH!
All of the bare metal is mostly rust free. The chrome wrenches that had a black coating over them from the fire are still black and chrome. All the black oxide tools are just grey now, the screw on the vise moved about a 1/5 of a turn with a hammer. The jaws did not seem to separate. Back in the soup it went.
I have a small pair of HKP bolt cutter that were covered in mortar, a vinegar soak took some of the mortar off and the molasses really cleaned the metal but I need to get more of the mortar off them to be able to reuse them.
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Sounds like it's running right.
Sort of similar to converting a tub of cabbage into kraut.
Good thing is a computer fan from the Headed to China bin will take the stink off to atmosphere.
Scrub the stuff you pull with Dawn dishsoap as fast as it comes out of the tank and you get rid of most of the crud.
Did I mention hanging a bunch of flystrips?
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Sounds like it's running right.
Sort of similar to converting a tub of cabbage into kraut.
Good thing is a computer fan from the Headed to China bin will take the stink off to atmosphere.
Scrub the stuff you pull with Dawn dishsoap as fast as it comes out of the tank and you get rid of most of the crud.
Did I mention hanging a bunch of flystrips?
The smell really wasn’t bad. My son didn’t like it. The wrenches went right into rinse water then were wiped off. A few things went back in and some more went into the soup.
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I used Evapo-Rust for a while but it was so expensive that I started looking for an alternative. I finally settled on citric acid because it was cheap. Turned out that it worked well also. I always used it in a plastic container such as one of the wife's old Tupperware containers.
I left most things in overnight, which was usually long enough for most items. Wash them off with a garden hose to get rid of most of the "stuff" that was left on the surface. Dry the surface as good as you can and then use 0000 steel wool to clean the balance of the crud off. After all the crud is off, spray it with your favorite potion. I used Remoil(Remington gun oil) to keep the piece from rusting again. I used this on plane irons, wrenches and even plane bodies and frogs. It didn't affect the Japanning on either one.
I did leave a plane body in too long and managed to ruined it. The acid etched the bottom badly. As was mentioned above, make sure your item is completely covered. If you don't you will get a line across the part that is virtually impossible to remove...ask me how I know:).
I used a cup of acid and poured that into a gallon of hot water. It dissolves quicker with the hot water, and if you use it while it's still warm it works faster.
My only problem was that I didn't like the color of the metal after it was done. It was a rather unnatural looking gray. Also it seemed like it made the surface rough. Maybe I left it in the acid too long, but I noticed this on many different items left in for different amounts of time.
Like most things, you need to try it for yourself , you may have different results.
Mike
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Flintstone; what is mortar? "bolt cutter that were covered in mortar" is that the same as used to make rock walls? didn't know vinegar could remove mortar...
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Flintstone; what is mortar? "bolt cutter that were covered in mortar" is that the same as used to make rock walls? didn't know vinegar could remove mortar...
yes, masons mortar! I thought who the heck would do that to a tool!!!!
I did not expect the vinegar to do anything, but it did loosen a fair amount of it. I assume it was weak mortar mix. thank God it wasn't cement!
some of the original red paint is now visible. I figure I will peck at it with a chisel next and see what comes off.
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One week update:
Well first off there is discussing foam on top of the molasses brew with mold growing on the foam. YECH!
All of the bare metal is mostly rust free. The chrome wrenches that had a black coating over them from the fire are still black and chrome. All the black oxide tools are just grey now, the screw on the vise moved about a 1/5 of a turn with a hammer. The jaws did not seem to separate. Back in the soup it went.
I have a small pair of HKP bolt cutter that were covered in mortar, a vinegar soak took some of the mortar off and the molasses really cleaned the metal but I need to get more of the mortar off them to be able to reuse them.
What is the foam talking about :)
Thanks for the chuckle
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Flintstone consider Laborers scrub new brick walls with a solution of Muriatic acid and water to get all the slopped mortar ff. Vinegar will work, just less effectively.
Keep an ear tuned to that foam.
Actually it's talking to your kid about how much extra money he can have selling the rum your tank can become in school.
Part 2 of the hands on learning program.
Kids learn best when they are learning something they can use.
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Flintstone consider Laborers scrub new brick walls with a solution of Muriatic acid and water to get all the slopped mortar ff. Vinegar will work, just less effectively.
Keep an ear tuned to that foam.
Actually it's talking to your kid about how much extra money he can have selling the rum your tank can become in school.
Part 2 of the hands on learning program.
Kids learn best when they are learning something they can use.
Thanks for the suggestion on muriatic acid.
I have no idea what you mean about the scum/foam.
I haven’t looked yet this week.
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Hi all
I collected cast frying pans & pots and used Electrolysis to clean them. Will take off paint-grease-rust.
All need is plastic bucket, battery charger, water , ph plus, and sheet of metal for the ( + ) side- a metal rod for ( - )side and wire hook. lowen
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Still no joy at the 2 week mark for the vise, but I am starting to see a gap between the jaws.
Here is the yucky mold.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img841/3433/dy9s.jpg)
And these are some gems after a week.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img401/4709/pj35.jpg)
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WOW!! Do you have a before & after photos?? from yucky mold to spotless clean.. Amazing!!
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WOW!! Do you have a before & after photos?? from yucky mold to spotless clean.. Amazing!!
sorry no, just figure a garage sale wooden box full of rusty drill bits.
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It seems to be doing a good job so far...interesting.
I would keep the cooler locked at night tho, I think the foam is discussing how to escape...
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Did I forget to tell you vises take a L O N G time to derust & get back in motion when they are rusted up solid?
There is a multipage thread where the mechanism of a vise blew away the electroplating system although all exposed surfaces came clean. As I recall after a month of electrons pounding it the guy put the vise into a 5 gallon bucket filled with Diesel fuel and let it sit a few more months before it freed up.
When you really get into rust among the things you learn is the tremendous amount of force rust develops (think about rust being able to spall concrete off rebar and create potholes in concrete structures). Rust also has tremendous adhesion and cohesion qualities. Rust may move slowly, but it generally always grows.
If you happen to have a small airhammer with a rivet setting chisel, or even a flat punch, pull the vise out of the tank and set it on its back end. Give the handle end of the screw a gentle beating with the air hammer for a minute or so and toss it back in the tank. That will often hasten the process by breaking up the rust bond between moving parts.
The most important thing to remember about rust remediation is that the rust didn't develop overnight, and only a fool thinks he is going to remove rust without serious damage overnight. If your screw or slide are seriously locked it may be necessary to go to a different process.
Keep an eye on the foam on top of the future rum. If it stops bubbling your tank may be contaminated. If so you needmore molasses.
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It seems to be doing a good job so far...interesting.
I would keep the cooler locked at night tho, I think the foam is discussing how to escape...
not going to let spell check/auto correct off the hook?
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So week 3 of the vise submersion. After the first week I was able to move the handle about one full revolution with a hammer . The jaws were not moving thought. I decided not to hammer on the handle any more but each week have been using the air chisel to try to separate the jaws. Poked at it last night and the lead screw came out 4” by hand and stopped. No joy on the main slide though.