Neutralizing vinegar

[1930]

Can any of you guys vouch for the Electrolysis method in that it will remove paint, grease and rust ?

I was/am under the impression that it is the way to go for rust removal however I have yet to find anyone who has personally seen it remove grease and paint.

[Aunt Phil]

1, it's not electrolosys.  It's electroplating.
2, you are asking about 2 seperate baths, not one unless you're Mr Halfass.
3, it's been disussed here at encyclopedic length, I suggest you employ the SEARCH function.

[Papaw]

Electrolysis is the proper term, but yes, it is technically electroplating since the rust is deposited on the positive side.

[1930]

The search function is an absolute joke not only on this site but all other web-sites/forums that I participate in. This is a discussion forum, if some of you do not want to discuss than dont.

I also find on most forums that alot of the info given is given by guys that have only read about it thru wiki or some other bullshit source, I am looking to discuss things with people that have hands on experience. It becomes pretty obvious pretty quick who has the hands on and who is regurgitating info they have read someone else once a discussion starts. The specific details are left out.

Dont believe me try and google how much baking soda ( pounds/OZ )  per gallon of water needs to be used to neutralize the acids of vinegar after soaking parts..........

[Papaw]

 Searching that specific topic won't show up here if it has not been discussed here.

[anglesmith]

1930,   I have progressively used Molasses, Ammonium sulphate (fertiliser) and vinegar (cheap white household vinegar) over the last 20 or so years. After soaking I have always cleaned the object (scrubbed with wire brushes, scourers etc) in water using liquid washing detergent ("Cold Power", do you have that?) on the theory that all washing powders/ liquids are alkali and apart from a slight rust flash if you let it dry slowly (a final rinse with hot water helps) I have been reasonably happy with my slowly learnt methods, apart from the fact that it is very physical! ( using elbow grease has always been hard work)  . As to the strength of the neutralising solution I don't think it is very critical, remember it is only vinegar, a very mild acid that we put in and on the foods we eat ! From my experience the main issue IS that you CANNOT use any acid type solutions, particularly vinegar to de-rust  any object where you can't get at all the surfaces to physically remove the crud that the vinegar has left behind in reacting with the rust. The only exception being close fitting joints on tools like pliers. I have "restored" fencing pliers that have been buried for years, deeply pitted handles but hardened jaws still useable and the joint "nearly" as good as the day it was made, Ugly as sin but usable!   Any hollow rusted area that cannot be cleaned will not only continue to rust but will rust at an accelerated rate thanks to the vinegar remaining in the crud and exposed to moisture in the  air. On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen) and the container must have a lid as the vinegar fumes WILL cause all the other tools close by in the workshop to rust !! (Good experience IS gained (or should be?) through having a LOT of bad experienceS!)  I should add that I sparingly use vinegar soaking these days as most of the tools that I "more" carefully select and acquire, that are suitable to be cleaned with vinegar can usually be cleaned of rust by scrubbing in the a-fore mentioned washing detergent mix and so leaving most of the "age patina" still there.
Sorry for the long rant.
Graeme


Multiple proof reading corrections!!

[Aunt Phil]

The search function is an absolute joke not only on this site but all other web-sites/forums that I participate in. This is a discussion forum, if some of you do not want to discuss than dont.

I also find on most forums that alot of the info given is given by guys that have only read about it thru wiki or some other bullshit source, I am looking to discuss things with people that have hands on experience. It becomes pretty obvious pretty quick who has the hands on and who is regurgitating info they have read someone else once a discussion starts. The specific details are left out.

Dont believe me try and google how much baking soda ( pounds/OZ )  per gallon of water needs to be used to neutralize the acids of vinegar after soaking parts..........

Gee, golly gosh there  , 1 search turned up the 3 page post here covering most of what you asked.
You are absolutely correct regarding InTURDnet Xspertz on rust removal, but then I've only been running multple conversion and removal processes for iron oxides for 30± years.


 
Now, do tell how you intend to deal with the contamination resulting from the Sodium Bicarbonate so the object will retain coating.

BTW, I've also posted the formula on here for a coating that can and does suppress rusting after raw iron has been exposed to air with water contained in the iron to act as a catalyst. 

I'm not about to repeat what I've typed before, happy SEARCH function.

[1930]

1930,   I have progressively used Molasses, Ammonium sulphate (fertiliser) and vinegar (cheap white household vinegar) over the last 20 or so years. After soaking I have always cleaned the object (scrubbed with wire brushes, scourers etc) in water using liquid washing detergent ("Cold Power", do you have that?) on the theory that all washing powders/ liquids are alkali and apart from a slight rust flash if you let it dry slowly (a final rinse with hot water helps) I have been reasonably happy with my slowly learnt methods, apart from the fact that it is very physical! ( using elbow grease has always been hard work)  . As to the strength of the neutralising solution I don't think it is very critical, remember it is only vinegar, a very mild acid that we put in and on the foods we eat ! From my experience the main issue IS that you CANNOT use any acid type solutions, particularly vinegar to de-rust  any object where you can't get at all the surfaces to physically remove the crud that the vinegar has left behind in reacting with the rust. The only exception being close fitting joints on tools like pliers. I have "restored" fencing pliers that have been buried for years, deeply pitted handles but hardened jaws still useable and the joint "nearly" as good as the day it was made, Ugly as sin but usable!   Any hollow rusted area that cannot be cleaned will not only continue to rust but will rust at an accelerated rate thanks to the vinegar remaining in the crud and exposed to moisture in the  air. On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen) and the container must have a lid as the vinegar fumes WILL cause all the other tools close by in the workshop to rust !! (Good experience IS gained (or should be?) through having a LOT of bad experienceS!)  I should add that I sparingly use vinegar soaking these days as most of the tools that I "more" carefully select and acquire, that are suitable to be cleaned with vinegar can usually be cleaned of rust by scrubbing in the a-fore mentioned washing detergent mix and so leaving most of the "age patina" still there.
Sorry for the long rant.
Graeme


Multiple proof reading corrections!!

Bear with me, Im a bit confused, you said ............From my experience the main issue IS that you CANNOT use any acid type solutions, particularly vinegar to de-rust  any object where you can't get at all the surfaces to physically remove the crud that the vinegar has left behind in reacting with the rust.................

Ok from my experience this makes sense to me, I have all the water passages within the head that obviously I cannot ever get to and it seems to me that the Vinegar has left behind a dark residue within these passages that I can remove here and there by inserting my smallest finger into the hole but of course most of it I cannot get to and rinsing it continuously does not seem to help get rid of that residue.

Here is where I am confused, you then said ...........On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen)...............

This is how I have had my parts soaking, totally immersed in the vinegar.

So do you recommend the vinegar in this case or disapprove and if disapprove than what can you suggest as the best method?

[anglesmith]

Here is where I am confused, you then said ...........On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen)...............

This is how I have had my parts soaking, totally immersed in the vinegar.

So do you recommend the vinegar in this case or disapprove and if disapprove than what can you suggest as the best method?
[/quote]

Sorry 1930 I focused on vinegar in relation to small tools and collectibles in general and not on your present problem. I don't know how this problem would be dealt with in industry, Think that I would have just mechanically cleaned the surfaces I could easily reach, I'm not clear how internally rusted it was? Vinegar doesn't seem to me to be as effective on cast iron as it is on steel and iron and even on then there are some oxide of iron it doesn't attack, but I am not up on the complex chemistry involved.   I am not an trained expert on rust removal I just know what has worked for me in home shop scenario.  I would imagine that a commercial engine reconditioning shop would have  access  to methods, chemicals and equipment not available to us at home and usually they don't want to tell us how or what do they but of course have no problem charging us dearly for the small one off job. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Graeme   

[rusty]

>a commercial engine reconditioning shop would have  access  to methods, chemicals and equipment not available to us at home

One of the chemicals used will eat off your skin in 30 seconds and blind you instantly, so I won't even say what it is here (but it works great).

The other has been banned by the guvment for quite a while...(works even better)

It has become hard to find anyone who will do the cleaning tho, all that gunk you are removing (grease, paint, rust, sludge) still ends up in the tank, has hazardous waste, and has to be paid for to dispose of....

[Chillylulu]

Someone mentioned brake cleaner - I think that brake cleaner and brake fluid are both too corrosive to use  as a wash or cleaner for a manifold.  I know that there are those who are proponents of using brake cleaner for cleaning out your heads, but I am not one of them. 

The original question, or one of them,  asked how much baking soda to use to neutralize vinegar.  The answer is "as much as it takes to neutralize the acid"  I am not being a smart aleck, the acid strength has been changed by its use, it wasn't that precise out if the bottle, and nobody can give you an exact amount of baking soda to use.  Best direction is to add until no more fizzing. Or measure until ph = 0. Vinegar isn't a problem to neutralize anyway - it is so weak you can drink it.  Let the gunk settle down to the bottom, pour the clean stuff off the top and save it.  Neutralize the remaining gunky stuff. Most of the vinegar was water, let it evaporate if you have  a lot of it. Then get rid of it with the rest of your oil waste. The only bad stuff is the part you crudded up with your iron and carbon.

I think you need to scrape where you can and not worry about light carbon buildup in the head.  If you have so much buildup inside the head that it is a problem you need to have it professionally cleaned.  If it is light buildup, change to a high quality synthetic oil.  Or add some treatment to your gasoline to clean it up. 

Get it as clean as you can by scraping, wire brushing where you can, etc. Then put it back on.  If you are real concerned that it is choking off one of the channels, wire up a little rag and pull it through there.

If you want to clean it just because you want everything factory clean, have it done by pros.

There us no "cheap" way.  I would almost bet money that any performance issues are more related to quality of fuel or air/fuel ratio than any buildup inside head tunnels.

[Chillylulu]

Can someone tell me how much baking soda is required to neutralize the rust removing vinegar solution I have had some parts laying in.

Ive had a cylinder head and an intake manifold sitting in Vinegar for a few days, I pulled out the intake and it was very clean, Vinegar worked very well but the orange came back very quickly so I need to evidently give it a Baking soda bath.

A baking soda bath is not the answer, unless you are trying to neutralize residual vinegar. Even then it can be as problematic as the vinegar. Use water.  Lots and lots of water to flush tge vinegar.

To stop rusting after cleaning, then flushing thoroughly with water, then drying, put some light oil on it to kep it from rusting further. All cast iron will lightly rust on its own to form a thin oxide layer unless something is put on it.

Vinegar or other acids that work on metal won't work on carbon or paint, necessarilly.  If you soak it long enough to remove the iron it is connected to, it'll fall off.  Oven cleaner works well on most auto paint. Airline paint remover works better.  Carbon is removed, in my experience with grease (Elbow grease). Elbow grease is the only reliable method available to the masses.

Chilly

PS  Don't think that there is a cheap chemical that will make up for 1000's of miles of cheap gas.  There's a reason for mid and high grades.

[1930]

>a commercial engine reconditioning shop would have  access  to methods, chemicals and equipment not available to us at home

One of the chemicals used will eat off your skin in 30 seconds and blind you instantly, so I won't even say what it is here (but it works great).

The other has been banned by the guvment for quite a while...(works even better)

It has become hard to find anyone who will do the cleaning tho, all that gunk you are removing (grease, paint, rust, sludge) still ends up in the tank, has hazardous waste, and has to be paid for to dispose of....

Yes, this is what I have found to be true as well although Im not sure about the part about a chemical still existing that will eat the skin off in 30 seconds, not sure that is avail in Fl any longer.

Since working on this project and others automotive related I have found ( by actually speaking with machinists/parts counter people in other states ) that many of the products offered up north for instance are simply not avail in southern states.

Makes no sense.

[1930]

Someone mentioned brake cleaner - I think that brake cleaner and brake fluid are both too corrosive to use  as a wash or cleaner for a manifold.  I know that there are those who are proponents of using brake cleaner for cleaning out your heads, but I am not one of them. 

The original question, or one of them,  asked how much baking soda to use to neutralize vinegar.  The answer is "as much as it takes to neutralize the acid"  I am not being a smart aleck, the acid strength has been changed by its use, it wasn't that precise out if the bottle, and nobody can give you an exact amount of baking soda to use.  Best direction is to add until no more fizzing. Or measure until ph = 0. Vinegar isn't a problem to neutralize anyway - it is so weak you can drink it.  Let the gunk settle down to the bottom, pour the clean stuff off the top and save it.  Neutralize the remaining gunky stuff. Most of the vinegar was water, let it evaporate if you have  a lot of it. Then get rid of it with the rest of your oil waste. The only bad stuff is the part you crudded up with your iron and carbon.

I think you need to scrape where you can and not worry about light carbon buildup in the head.  If you have so much buildup inside the head that it is a problem you need to have it professionally cleaned.  If it is light buildup, change to a high quality synthetic oil.  Or add some treatment to your gasoline to clean it up. 

Get it as clean as you can by scraping, wire brushing where you can, etc. Then put it back on.  If you are real concerned that it is choking off one of the channels, wire up a little rag and pull it through there.

If you want to clean it just because you want everything factory clean, have it done by pros.

There us no "cheap" way.  I would almost bet money that any performance issues are more related to quality of fuel or air/fuel ratio than any buildup inside head tunnels.

Brake cleaner in that amount is cost prohibitive.

I have seen with my own eyes Vinegar eat/soften cast iron with enough exposure so not all that weak out of the bottle. I did not know and could not find info about the soda amount and that is why I asked, it is becoming more clear to me because I did ask, thanks for your input on this .....I.E until it stops fizzing and checking the PH amount.

I have read that the EPA has taken away most shops abilities to properly clean parts so that they come out looking like new parts. This is only an experiment, maybe the EPA took away their ability ( big shop ) but I still have the ability. Dont know until I ask around and so this is what I have been doing.

I like to do everything I do as best as I can do it, if it takes me a very long time to learn the best was and alot of trial error and is some instances money than so be it. This is a hobby for me, I am in no rush with my hobbies and I find the trial-error-learning process rewarding.

I understand that it makes some people on these on-line forums feel frustrated because they cannot understand my way of thinking but what can I say.

[1930]

Here is where I am confused, you then said ...........On that point the object being cleaned must be totally immersed in the vinegar (to exclude oxygen)...............

This is how I have had my parts soaking, totally immersed in the vinegar.

So do you recommend the vinegar in this case or disapprove and if disapprove than what can you suggest as the best method?

Sorry 1930 I focused on vinegar in relation to small tools and collectibles in general and not on your present problem. I don't know how this problem would be dealt with in industry, Think that I would have just mechanically cleaned the surfaces I could easily reach, I'm not clear how internally rusted it was? Vinegar doesn't seem to me to be as effective on cast iron as it is on steel and iron and even on then there are some oxide of iron it doesn't attack, but I am not up on the complex chemistry involved.   I am not an trained expert on rust removal I just know what has worked for me in home shop scenario.  I would imagine that a commercial engine reconditioning shop would have  access  to methods, chemicals and equipment not available to us at home and usually they don't want to tell us how or what do they but of course have no problem charging us dearly for the small one off job. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Graeme   
[/quote]

No problem whatsoever, I am only looking for honest preferably self tested techniques/experiences