Neutralizing vinegar

[Aunt Phil]

Lets begin with the FACT vinegar is commercially produced in a "generator" heated retort type vessel made of cast iron.  Vinegar is a nasty product in that it is an acid, and not particularly friendly to iron.  Vinegar generators have a life expectancy of about 6 months, and all plumbing to and from them is PVC, and holding tanks are usually poly.  Vinegar will also destroy copper, although it lasts longer.

Vinegar will dissolve rust, BUT, vinegar does NOT stop attacking iron molecules when it reaches good metal.  Vinegar is a poor rust remover given that it damages iron.

WHY does freshly derusted iron flash rust so fast, and what can be done to stop that?
Well gee, you just exposed pure iron containing molecules to oxygen and provided the catalyst that makes rust react.  DOH!
You want to stop rust from happening, remove the catalyst instantly by heating the casting or iron object to 300° in a water free atmosphere, and that ain't your gas grill that produces water from the burning propane.
Motor oil and transmission fluid don't cut it either because both are formulated to absorb water.
WD 40 ain't getting the job done either, it's mostly Kerosene and designed to DISPLACE water, not stop water.
Got a lot of money to waste, look at Boeshield or Fluid film.  Both are mixes of lanolin and mineral oil with a carrier.  You can make it for less than 1/4 of what you can buy it from either manufacturer.

On the subject of carbon.  Carbon is an element, it cannot be broken down in the manner rust can.  Rust is 2 elements, and can be broken apart by removing either the iron atom or the oxygen atom.  Both Iron and oxygen are elements and cannot be broken down although both can be combined with many other elements fairly easily at room temperature.  Carbon does not like to combine unless a lot of temperature is added to the equation. 

Yes, there used to be commercial hot tanks used in engine shops.  They were steel tanks with a high capacity burner and most had agitators, and they were usually ticking time bombs.  NO, they have not been outlawed by EPA or anyone else.  EPA and the Possum Police in every State have placed books of rules on the operation of these tanks with cradle to grave registration of the chemistry the tank operates on.  That costs far more money than the tank can generate in any production situation today when added to the cost of fuel and INSURANCE.

Are there effective room temperature carbon removers?  Yes.  Look at a can of EZ Off or any oven cleaner. 
These work not by dissolving carbon, but rather than breaking down the material adhesing the carbon to the metal, and require time and a friendly environment to function.  THEY CAN ALSO CAUSE SERIOUS SKIN BURNS AND BLIND YOU IF YOU GET SOME IN YOUR EYE.

Since carbon cannot atomically combine with iron below the melt point of the iron, we know the carbon is stuck to the engine by a adhesive bond.  This is different from "Mill scale" on new steel from a mill.  We also know most castings are wonderful adhesion surfaces because they are rough.  Removing carbon from an engine increases in difficulty tremendously because the carbon has been impinged onto the surface at high temperature, and grabbed a foothold on both the roughness and porosity of the metal.  Then it was baked into place.

Since carbon has no propensity to go into solution with anything else at room temperature, it ain't coming away from iron easily.  There seems to be a theory in the cooking industry that carbon comes off easily with a cleaning agent.  Most of the cleaning agents offered for sale at high price are strictly dissolvers of the grease holding the carbon adhesed to the iron, employing the same group of ingredients found in paint strippers.  These are some nasty products that will eat your skin and blind you.  If you insist on using them, have plenty of BEER standing by.  Beer is the best neutralizer that will stop the burning,actually the consumption of fat cells in your skin by the corrosive ingredient.  If you don't need the beer for first aid, you can always drink it as you admire your work.

Want an easy & fast wat to remove carbon and carbon contained in fully plasticized grease from metal?  Liquid Nitrogen.  It breaks the bond fast.  It will also cost you a fortune for the Nitrogen and equipment to handle it.  It's damn fast though.

[oldtools]

I use solvent bath & stiff brush to clean grease & oil, sometimes use acetone to remove paint also. (depending on type of paint) may need to scrape it off. Then vinegar soak to dissolve rust, rinse off vinegar, mix ~1/2 water & 1/2 Baking soda & brush allover till it stops foaming (Neutralized). rinse off baking soda, dry parts (towel & hair dryer), & spray/rub light oil to coat parts. (Mineral oil works).. 
That water/baking soda mix works great to clean battery terminals..

[1930]

Lets begin with the FACT vinegar is commercially produced in a "generator" heated retort type vessel made of cast iron.  Vinegar is a nasty product in that it is an acid, and not particularly friendly to iron.  Vinegar generators have a life expectancy of about 6 months, and all plumbing to and from them is PVC, and holding tanks are usually poly.  Vinegar will also destroy copper, although it lasts longer.

Vinegar will dissolve rust, BUT, vinegar does NOT stop attacking iron molecules when it reaches good metal.  Vinegar is a poor rust remover given that it damages iron.

WHY does freshly derusted iron flash rust so fast, and what can be done to stop that?
Well gee, you just exposed pure iron containing molecules to oxygen and provided the catalyst that makes rust react.  DOH!
You want to stop rust from happening, remove the catalyst instantly by heating the casting or iron object to 300° in a water free atmosphere, and that ain't your gas grill that produces water from the burning propane.
Motor oil and transmission fluid don't cut it either because both are formulated to absorb water.
WD 40 ain't getting the job done either, it's mostly Kerosene and designed to DISPLACE water, not stop water.
Got a lot of money to waste, look at Boeshield or Fluid film.  Both are mixes of lanolin and mineral oil with a carrier.  You can make it for less than 1/4 of what you can buy it from either manufacturer.

On the subject of carbon.  Carbon is an element, it cannot be broken down in the manner rust can.  Rust is 2 elements, and can be broken apart by removing either the iron atom or the oxygen atom.  Both Iron and oxygen are elements and cannot be broken down although both can be combined with many other elements fairly easily at room temperature.  Carbon does not like to combine unless a lot of temperature is added to the equation. 

Yes, there used to be commercial hot tanks used in engine shops.  They were steel tanks with a high capacity burner and most had agitators, and they were usually ticking time bombs.  NO, they have not been outlawed by EPA or anyone else.  EPA and the Possum Police in every State have placed books of rules on the operation of these tanks with cradle to grave registration of the chemistry the tank operates on.  That costs far more money than the tank can generate in any production situation today when added to the cost of fuel and INSURANCE.

Are there effective room temperature carbon removers?  Yes.  Look at a can of EZ Off or any oven cleaner. 
These work not by dissolving carbon, but rather than breaking down the material adhesing the carbon to the metal, and require time and a friendly environment to function.  THEY CAN ALSO CAUSE SERIOUS SKIN BURNS AND BLIND YOU IF YOU GET SOME IN YOUR EYE.

Since carbon cannot atomically combine with iron below the melt point of the iron, we know the carbon is stuck to the engine by a adhesive bond.  This is different from "Mill scale" on new steel from a mill.  We also know most castings are wonderful adhesion surfaces because they are rough.  Removing carbon from an engine increases in difficulty tremendously because the carbon has been impinged onto the surface at high temperature, and grabbed a foothold on both the roughness and porosity of the metal.  Then it was baked into place.

Since carbon has no propensity to go into solution with anything else at room temperature, it ain't coming away from iron easily.  There seems to be a theory in the cooking industry that carbon comes off easily with a cleaning agent.  Most of the cleaning agents offered for sale at high price are strictly dissolvers of the grease holding the carbon adhesed to the iron, employing the same group of ingredients found in paint strippers.  These are some nasty products that will eat your skin and blind you.  If you insist on using them, have plenty of BEER standing by.  Beer is the best neutralizer that will stop the burning,actually the consumption of fat cells in your skin by the corrosive ingredient.  If you don't need the beer for first aid, you can always drink it as you admire your work.

Want an easy & fast wat to remove carbon and carbon contained in fully plasticized grease from metal?  Liquid Nitrogen.  It breaks the bond fast.  It will also cost you a fortune for the Nitrogen and equipment to handle it.  It's damn fast though.

 I recently soaked a mid eighties slant six head in a straight white vinegar solution ( clear plastic container enclosed in black trash bags to take advantage of any heat given off by our Florida sun ) for 7 days, at the end of the 7th day I removed cylinder head to find that a majority of the MACHINED surfaces had become soft, I was able to dig down into the cast iron with a screwdriver or razor blade to about the depth of a business card before reaching hard metal.

I say only a majority because there were some pimple sized ( and slightly larger ) segments of the machined surfaces that were still hard typical cast iron, very few and very sporadic across the surfaces. Again only the machined surfaces but after thinking about the un-machined surfaces they were possibly still coated with paint ( in the places I tested ) which was un-affected by the vinegar. Possibly a protectant?

Do you believe this and can you explain why this happened?

 I have had other people come very close to telling me that I am making up the scenario mentioned above, that Vinegar is not strong enough to do this type of damage to cast iron.

Cylinder head is junk, I let sit for 3-4 days and just for the heck of it tried the scrape test again and the cast iron appeared to have reverted back to its old solid form.

Thanks for any explanation you can provide.



 

[rusty]

> Vinegar is not strong enough to do this type of damage to cast iron.

Surprising, but after a whole week in the sun, perhaps it could happen , a little. Normally the effect requires burial in the ground for a while in very nasty soil conditions.

It is called Graphitic Softening, it is peculular to high carbon cast irons. The acid ate the iron crystals, leaving the graphite skeletin around them, which preserves the overall shape, but is soft and easily damaged/abraided. The iron is still there, but it has been converted into colloidal iron (hyper fine particles). When you let it dry out, they support the graphite, so it seems hard again however, the metal has in fact been damaged, it is now very brittle and weak.

The effect is described in a research paper in 1924, so it's not really something new ;P

[1930]

> Vinegar is not strong enough to do this type of damage to cast iron.

Surprising, but after a whole week in the sun, perhaps it could happen , a little. Normally the effect requires burial in the ground for a while in very nasty soil conditions.

It is called Graphitic Softening, it is peculular to high carbon cast irons. The acid ate the iron crystals, leaving the graphite skeletin around them, which preserves the overall shape, but is soft and easily damaged/abraided. The iron is still there, but it has been converted into colloidal iron (hyper fine particles). When you let it dry out, they support the graphite, so it seems hard again however, the metal has in fact been damaged, it is now very brittle and weak.

The effect is described in a research paper in 1924, so it's not really something new ;P

Rusty, will you please give me a link to ..............The effect is described in a research paper in 1924.............I would like to read the original version as what you describe seems to fit perfectly with my situation.

[1930]

Im going to guess this is what you were referring to? http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50174a010

[Chillylulu]

Very well said Aunt Phil!

I'd like to expound upon a couple of your points:

Lets begin with the FACT vinegar is commercially produced in a "generator" heated retort type vessel made of cast iron.  Vinegar is a nasty product in that it is an acid, and not particularly friendly to iron.  Vinegar generators have a life expectancy of about 6 months, and all plumbing to and from them is PVC, and holding tanks are usually poly.  Vinegar will also destroy copper, although it lasts longer.

Vinegar will dissolve rust, BUT, vinegar does NOT stop attacking iron molecules when it reaches good metal.  Vinegar is a poor rust remover given that it damages iron.

I wouldn't like to scare people away from using vinegar as an acid. (I'm not suggesting that you were, but I wouldn't classify it as "nasty" as far as acids go, but I do agree that generally most acids (including acetic acid) are "nasty" compared to other stuff we are likely to encounter in our life. 

To further clarify vinegar (a dilute acetic acid solution) is a weak acid (weak and strong are two of many types of acid.)  Generally, but not always, weak acids are less corrosive than strong acids (just like spelling in that there are exceptions that make sense only when you dig deep into the definitions of the types.) Vinegar is relatively safe and usually not a big disposal concern.

In a metals reactivity series iron (Fe) and some other metals react with acids.  Some less reactive metals even react with water! ( for instance sodium and calcium. ) Some more reactive metals (for example copper, silver,  gold) may react with strong oxidizing acids.

Carbon is kind of unique among all of the elements. In many ways it seem to contradict itself.  I am cheating and quoting the following from wikipedia:

" The different forms or allotropes of carbon (see below) include the hardest naturally occurring substance, diamond, and also one of the softest known substances, graphite. Moreover, it has an affinity for bonding with other small atoms, including other carbon atoms, and is capable of forming multiple stable covalent bonds with such atoms. As a result, carbon is known to form almost ten million different compounds; the large majority of all chemical compounds.[14] Carbon also has the highest sublimation point of all elements. At atmospheric pressure it has no melting point as its triple point is at 10.8 ± 0.2 MPa and 4,600 ± 300 K (~4,330 °C or 7,820 °F),[2][3] so it sublimes at about 3,900 K.[17][18]

Carbon sublimes in a carbon arc which has a temperature of about 5,800 K (5,530 °C; 9,980 °F). Thus, irrespective of its allotropic form, carbon remains solid at higher temperatures than the highest melting point metals such as tungsten or rhenium. Although thermodynamically prone to oxidation, carbon resists oxidation more effectively than elements such as iron and copper that are weaker reducing agents at room temperature.

Carbon compounds form the basis of all known life on Earth, and the carbon-nitrogen cycle provides some of the energy produced by the Sun and other stars. Although it forms an extraordinary variety of compounds, most forms of carbon are comparatively unreactive under normal conditions. At standard temperature and pressure, it resists all but the strongest oxidizers. It does not react with sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid, chlorine or any alkalis. At elevated temperatures carbon reacts with oxygen to form carbon oxides, and will reduce such metal oxides as iron oxide to the metal. This exothermic reaction is used in the iron and steel industry to control the carbon content of steel:

Fe
3O
4 + 4 C(s) → 3 Fe(s) + 4 CO(g)
with sulfur to form carbon disulfide and with steam in the coal-gas reaction:

C(s) + H2O(g) → CO(g) + H2(g).
Carbon combines with some metals at high temperatures to form metallic carbides, such as the iron carbide cementite in steel, and tungsten carbide, widely used as an abrasive and for making hard tips for cutting tools.  "

As you can see there is a reason for all the confusion and also all the theories on how to remove the "carbon" deposits.

So, bottom line:

1. All acids are nasty.
2. Vinegar is relatively safe for being a nasty.
3. Carbon deposits are hard to remove chemically.

And like I said earlier - if you are going cheap and using regular gas in your engine, don't expect to find a cheap method for removing hidden carbon deposits from an intake manifold ten yrs later.  There isn't one.  (I've considered chemical, steam, etc.) Only inexpensive way to remove it is mechanically, with a scraper and hard work. For most purposes I think it is on par with cleaning the inside of your tires.

Chilly

[Aunt Phil]

Well.  If we're going to go all blue on carbon, lets not forget Carbon is the only element that shrinks rather than expands as it gets hot, lowers electrical resistance when hot, and changes resistance as it is compressed.

Carbon has strange properties.

[Chillylulu]

And a little char on a good steak is tasty, but a little more and its ruined.

Chilly

[Ietech]

Can any of you guys vouch for the Electrolysis method in that it will remove paint, grease and rust ?

I was/am under the impression that it is the way to go for rust removal however I have yet to find anyone who has personally seen it remove grease and paint.

The following is from a post I made quite a long while ago. Keep in mind that electrolysis will work primarily on the exposed areas and not the oil  or watergalleys I have cleaned those areas with WD-40 and long thin wire brush, thin wash the entire object with water, quickly dry and give a liberal oil soaking.  Worked well for me. In addition the lawn liked the residue from the electrolysis which is non toxic.  Also it is non destructive to the item being de-rusted.   EDIT: Electrolysis will NOT REMOVE PAINT

BELOW IS MY SUCCESSFUL work with electrolysis

   
    "OLD GUYS RULE" --- East Sacramento, CA
     
Re: Rust Removal
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 04:04:25 PM »

   
I have just finished my first attempt using electrolysis. It worked very well removing the rust and was very easy. My only problem is that it turned one of the items very black.

The items worked:
 #1 1930-40 tack puller will be my first Perfect Handle project. I will use fresh maple that I am in the process of drying.

#2 six inch section of RR track that I will make a small bench top anvil from.

Electrolysis turned both items black. This is not a problem with the puller as it was black to begin with. But the track section turned pitch black and so far a wire wheel doesn't phase it. Well maybe a black anvil isn't sooo bad but I really would like it to shine. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I will say tho that there is not a speck of rust anywhere. I quickly washed both Items, dried, and oiled them heavily. I will have to wait until my maple is ready to complete the handle for the tack puller. I will try to get some pics up.  Oh since I really don't have a place to store my electrolyte container the lawn got a good dose of high iron fertilizer.

Well I did try pics.  I will put them on photobucket and see if it works.
 
http://s1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/ietech/Perfect%20Handle%20Project/?albumview=slideshow

[1930]

Can any of you guys vouch for the Electrolysis method in that it will remove paint, grease and rust ?

I was/am under the impression that it is the way to go for rust removal however I have yet to find anyone who has personally seen it remove grease and paint.

The following is from a post I made quite a long while ago. Keep in mind that electrolysis will work primarily on the exposed areas and not the oil  or watergalleys I have cleaned those areas with WD-40 and long thin wire brush, thin wash the entire object with water, quickly dry and give a liberal oil soaking.  Worked well for me. In addition the lawn liked the residue from the electrolysis which is non toxic.  Also it is non destructive to the item being de-rusted.   EDIT: Electrolysis will NOT REMOVE PAINT

BELOW IS MY SUCCESSFUL work with electrolysis

   
    "OLD GUYS RULE" --- East Sacramento, CA
     
Re: Rust Removal
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 04:04:25 PM »

   
I have just finished my first attempt using electrolysis. It worked very well removing the rust and was very easy. My only problem is that it turned one of the items very black.

The items worked:
 #1 1930-40 tack puller will be my first Perfect Handle project. I will use fresh maple that I am in the process of drying.

#2 six inch section of RR track that I will make a small bench top anvil from.

Electrolysis turned both items black. This is not a problem with the puller as it was black to begin with. But the track section turned pitch black and so far a wire wheel doesn't phase it. Well maybe a black anvil isn't sooo bad but I really would like it to shine. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I will say tho that there is not a speck of rust anywhere. I quickly washed both Items, dried, and oiled them heavily. I will have to wait until my maple is ready to complete the handle for the tack puller. I will try to get some pics up.  Oh since I really don't have a place to store my electrolyte container the lawn got a good dose of high iron fertilizer.

Well I did try pics.  I will put them on photobucket and see if it works.
 
http://s1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/ietech/Perfect%20Handle%20Project/?albumview=slideshow

Thanks everyone for the time spent. Im juggling a few projects and only have the weekends for all this stuff so I am picking at things little by little.