Author Topic: Molasses chelation  (Read 13950 times)

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Offline fflintstone

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Molasses chelation
« on: July 15, 2013, 08:08:35 AM »
Paging Aunt Phil! We all know using molasses chelation to remove rust is a great way to go. I have a few questions though. I have heard to use a 9:1 or 10:1 ratio of water to molasses, is there any benefit to using a slightly stronger ratio? Does the chelation process give off a gas? IE can you put it in a sealed container? (It stinks)

I acquired an old steel belted cooler for free at a yard sale and I am going to make it my “molasses chelation tank” I have a reed vice that is froze up solid, and all my attempts to free it have come up short. It sat in a used oil/solvent mix for 6 months, and a vinegar bath for over a week, I have pummeled it with a hammer to no avail. I am going to try the molasses bath but I am not holding out much hope. I will use heat as a last resort after I get a full oxygen tank.

Offline fflintstone

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 06:04:51 AM »
nobody done any molasses rust removal?

Offline skylab

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2013, 10:36:55 AM »
Never used molasses but used white vinegar.  White vinegar is stronger than regular.  Put rusted tools in vinegar overnight then with gloves brush them with a plastic brush.  Put them back in vinegar to remove more rust.  This really works well when the temperature is hot out.  I do this only outside.  I remember a few times the tool felt very hot from the acid eating it.  Be careful not damaged your tools.  Also must dry the tool immediately and coat it with something or it will rust right away.   I coat it either with a clear varnish coat or mineral oil.
I'm gonna try lemon juice someday.  heard it works great and doesn't smell as bad.

Skylab
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Looking to buy farm implement wrenches.  They can be orphans

Offline skylab

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CONTRIBUTOR
Looking to buy farm implement wrenches.  They can be orphans

Offline fflintstone

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 11:51:33 AM »
 I have used vinegar as well. I also used molasses once. I can definitely say vinegar is much quicker but great care must be taken to neutralize the acid or it will come back to bite you in the rear. The molasses is supposed to be gentile.

Just wondering if someone had experience with something that has rusted together like the vise I am trying to rescue.

Thanks for the ford link but I can’t go to garage journal, they have my IP address blocked.

Offline Aunt Phil

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2013, 01:48:17 PM »
Fred, it's a 7 to 1 dilution ratio for liquid cow molasses from the feed store, not sure on dilution for the bagged semidry product.

There's a decent representation of the process over on http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rust-removal-miracle-molasses-204391.html.

Stinks is such an ugly word, possibly accurate, but ugly none the less.  Dave Koffer was running about a 1000 gallon Lasses Tank in Georgia last I talked to him.  He had it set up in sort of a carport structure the wind could blow thru.  Seem to recall Dave mentioning a lot of flypaper strips too.

Seems I recall something about fermenting Lasses to make something called RUM.  You can bet this juice outgasses, but then, don't we all.

Pay particular attention to the COMPLETELY SUBMERGED part of the discussion.

Depending on where you live Cow Lasses might be fairly cheap.

When you're done chelating that Lasses is good for ice melting in winter, and you can load tractor tires with it too.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance!

Offline rustynbent

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2013, 01:06:34 AM »
I have used molasses and don't really like it.  If you have a short attention span, it can hurt your results.  It will eat your work up if leave it too long in the solution. You really need to keep an eye on it.

Offline fflintstone

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 02:15:10 AM »
I have used molasses and don't really like it.  If you have a short attention span, it can hurt your results.  It will eat your work up if leave it too long in the solution. You really need to keep an eye on it.

I know vinegar does that but the molasses is not supposed to do that, in fact that is supposed to be the one thing for molasses is that it is supposed to not attack base metal.

Could you please elaborate on your experience?

Offline Aunt Phil

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 03:20:22 AM »
The world of Internet Rust removal has firmly planted itself in Rusty's giant binary cesspool Flintstone. 
Funny part is I've read a lot from the acclaimed Experts on the web, and the one thing I'm sure of is most of them are 1 trick ponies who make a huge splash on the web and crawl off before they can be pinned down on any of their theory.

For 20 + years I worked with a man who was near insane in his dedication to developing the perfect rust removal system.  I watched 8 years spent on a filtering system for the tanks that electrplate rust off one object and most often onto an electrode before the flter and media were stumbled onto.  2 men stood looking at what was happening and said DOH, we knew that, why the hell didn't we use it before.

Anybody showing an "electrolosys" rust removal process with a layer of scum on top of the tank and cleaning electrodes ain't in the ballgame, because state of the art is a tank you can see to the bottom through the electrolyte, run 24/7 and not clean electrodes.  The people who know what they are doing damn sure ain't looking into a camera and posting crap on UTube.

Off top of my head I can think of probably 7 rust removal processes, acids that do the job range from muriatric to citric and phosphoric.  Of that group, only phosphoric will not attack good steel.  There really aren't any great secrets in the acid processes, unless you believe EvapOrust is a SECRET formula.  iT'S CITRIC ACID!  Same citric acid as you find in molasses t a higher concentration.

The problem with citric comes when the rusty object isn't completely submerged.  There can be problems with container reactions too.

Lasses chelates rust to dust.  Lasses contains citric acid, and if you leave steel in lasses long enough, the citric will eat your steel. 

Were I playing with a vise I'd buy a bag of citric, rig a coil of black pipe to heat it, and circulate hot acid around the drowned vise, checking results twice a day.  It'll get in gaps faster than lasses, and draw less flys.  Then again, I ain't an Inturdnet xspert.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance!

Offline fflintstone

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 06:58:59 AM »
Always a pleasure to read your commentary AP.
I was unaware that molasses contained citric acid. And after some research I am not convinced it has it to start with, but it is huge quantities to produce citric acid thru fermentation.

I did purchase molasses at my favorite feed store yesterday for $4.99 a gallon.

I will be starting an experiment with some fire wrenches and the vise this weekend.

My guess is a packet of yeast might cause expedience of the fermentation, but another time maybe.

Offline Aunt Phil

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 03:34:07 PM »
You won't need to add yeast, the tank will pull yeast out of the air.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance!

Offline rusty

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2013, 04:47:18 PM »
Ahh, but will it be rum yeast , or bread yeast? LOL
Just a weathered light rust/WD40 mix patina.

Offline fflintstone

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2013, 06:09:49 PM »
more info than you need to know.

Aspergillus niger

A. niger is cultured for the industrial production of many substances. Various strains of A. niger are used in the industrial preparation of citric acid (E330) and gluconic acid (E574) and have been assessed as acceptable for daily intake by the World Health Organisation. A. niger fermentation is "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) by the United States Food and Drug Administration under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.[8]
Many useful enzymes are produced using industrial fermentation of A. niger. For example, A. niger glucoamylase is used in the production of high fructose corn syrup, and pectinases are used in cider and wine clarification. Alpha-galactosidase, an enzyme that breaks down certain complex sugars, is a component of Beano and other products that decrease flatulence. Another use for A. niger within the biotechnology industry is in the production of magnetic isotope-containing variants of biological macromolecules for NMR analysis.


Offline Aunt Phil

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2013, 12:12:19 AM »
Why is it Rusty always goes all off kilter about rust removal threads?
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance!

Offline fflintstone

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Re: Molasses chelation
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2013, 11:10:00 AM »
Started the process last night with the vise and a metric shit ton of fire wrenches. About to head out to check the overnight progress.