>Does yours look like this?
>If not, please provide a more detailed description and if possible pictures. Thanks!

It isn't this one.  I've never seen one of the 1871 patent hammers.  I'll see if I can find it and get pictures, but it's set up just like those for wire nails except the cut out for the nail head is larger, to accommodate the thicker heads of cut nails, and the end of the nail head slot is relieved to accept rose head cut nails -- the ones with the lump on top of the head.

Quote from: Branson on January 26, 2013, 08:17:33 AM
It isn't this one.  I've never seen one of the 1871 patent hammers.  I'll see if I can find it and get pictures, but it's set up just like those for wire nails except the cut out for the nail head is larger, to accommodate the thicker heads of cut nails, and the end of the nail head slot is relieved to accept rose head cut nails -- the ones with the lump on top of the head.

The picture I posted is of a Cheney Patent Nail Holder -- based one Henry's 1871 patent.

Now you've got my curiosity peaked!

There are definitely lots of Henry Cheney Hammer Company products not listed in the 1904 catalog, which is just about the only reference available. I'd love to catalog all that I can find!

Quote from: Branson on January 25, 2013, 07:50:19 AM
...  One I have is a rather typical bell face hammer.  But I picked up a plain faced Cheney nailer some years ago that was clearly designed to hold cut nails.  It's the only one I've ever seen.   Do you know anything about such hammers?

I can't put my hands on the one I have, but I've found three others on the net.  The first two are for sale in Australia:

http://www.toolexchange.com.au/Hammers-Claw.html

The third is on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-CHENEY-Little-Falls-ball-bearing-nail-holding-hammer-massive-2-lb-size-/350699027650?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a74a7cc2

Branson,

I think I see what you mean -- the slot is more of a cross than a T. These look like Cheney Nailers to me -- I can see the ball bearings. I read somewhere else that Cheney hammers may have been produced in Australia under license to a company named Cyclone. Which might explain the differences in the shape of the slot.

BTW, if it's true that Cyclone produced these under license, then it must have happened under Elmer Mulford's watch (1925-1954). Everything I've read about the company before then indicates that the majority of their products were exported, probably due to tariffs supported by the steel trust (I need to learn more about this). One article said that half of their output went to Australia!

Another thing to note, it appears that the Nailer feature was so popular that they added it to almost all of their carpentry hammers, e.g. the No. 944 ripping hammer. It seems that this wouldn't work nearly as well given that the sharp ends of the claws would probably contact the surface before anything less than a 16d nail -- and even then it would be close.

Yet one more possibility is that these are Stirrup brand hammers, produced in Germany by a company named Picard.

Jeff

I used to think the Cheney hammer was a simple subject.  Not so, apparently.

Looking at the list of claw hammers at:

http://toolexchange.com.au/

I find #2871 made by Cyclone
#2850 made by Flag Brand
#4755 made by Gedore
#2824 is listed as made by Cheney, Australia

#6449 is listed as "Original Cheney"
#1795 listed as Cheney USA

Numbers 4308, 4896, and 2872 are listed as simply Cheney.

Maybe some of our Aussie members can shed some light here -- there's a lot of territory to cover, it seems.

A number of tools have been made in Australia on patterns from elsewhere.  (There's a Ford factory in Gelong, Victoria that makes cars that don't look like any Fords I know, just to confuse the issue.)   When I was in Oz back in 2006, I picked up a Stanley pattern marking gauge made by Simplex -- parts interchange with American Stanleys.

Cyclone is an Aussie manufacturer, but what about Cheney, Aus?  And where were Gedores and Flag Brands made?

I'm fairly certain that my straight face was made in the US.  I picked it up years ago at a flea market in Sacramento.

All those I enumerated above have that cross shaped slot, and it seems to me that this style slot is only useful to accommodate rose head  cut nails.
Were such nails still much used in Australia in the 20th Century?  I haven't found any of this style of slot among the bell faced Cheneys.

>Ford factory in Gelong, Victoria that makes cars that don't look like any Fords I know
Ford in Au is one of the most convoluted, bizzare, complicated, weird company histories you will ever read ;P

Au had fairly protective tarriff's , just like the UK, so making things under licence would be much more attractive than importing them, as intended. Not surprising so many tools show up with notably familiar patterns.....

Wonder if Cyclone was making axe's etc also?

I have Photo copy of Cyclone's 1961 catalogue and a 1964 wholesale price list. At that time they were making a range of tradesman's tools from claw hammers ( no Cheney's listed) to garden tools including axes. (hatchets and belt axes under licence from True Temper Cleveland. Positive lock adjustables under licence from J H Williams Buffalo )
Branson, Cyclone's "nail holder type" has a T style slot, I've always believed that they were for starting flat headed case nails, where "positioning" is not so critical
Graeme

Branson,

You've opened a big can of worms! ;-)

I'm starting to think that these are knock-offs rather than licensed products. It's interesting that Cyclone called their's a "Nailmaster".

The Gedore is marked "Made in Germany" and its slot looks just like the one on Picard's. Perhaps they merged at some point?

Searching for "Flag Brand" is a nightmare...

I'm not convinced that Cheney made hammers in Australia, but I keep learning something new about the company every day...

The shape of the slot seems to be the key difference between these hammers. I made a quick sketch:



Jeff

I agree Cheney USA didn't make hammers in Australia but they were made (by Cyclone under licence?) and sold here under the Cheney name. I have found an Australian Dunlop Industrial catalogue (1980s ?) that lists both Cheney nail holder and cyclone nailmaster hammers and BOTH have Cyclone stickers on the handles!? The shape of the slot of the Cyclone nailmaster hammer in my 1961 Cyclone catalogue is more like the Gedore/ Piccard?
Graeme

Jeff,

I see the same configuration patterns.  But :-) ...  A few observations: 

All those that have the cruciform cut out are plain face hammers -- without any exception I have seen so far.  The bell faced hammers all seem to have the standard T shaped Cheney cut out.  (When did the bell face take over?  The plain face seems to have dwindled and died.  Might be a clue...)

The cruciform slot also appears on #1795, #4896, #4308, #2291, which are identified as Cheney made.  #1795, in fact, says specifically Cheney USA.

#8924, identified as Cheney, has a big opening like the Flag.

I still wonder why the cruciform shape.  It would seem that making that shape would require more machining than the T shape (so why do it?) and that the force of the blow would be delivered to the edges of the head, not a good idea in my thinking.   To accommodate finish nails perhaps?  I dunno.

If the Aussie Tool Exchange is to be trusted, and they seem to be careful and accurate,  there's still much we don't know.

Branson,

The older I get, the more I realize how little I know. The only thing I know for certain is that I have a lot to learn.

Somewhere out there must be other Cheney Hammer catalogs. I've seen one listed from 1912, but that's probably not much different than the 1904 catalog. I found a 1952 Garehime & Boone Hardware Co. catalog that lists five different models -- Nos. 39 1/2, 43, 937, 398, and 944 -- but that's all.

For now, I'm still digging through the NY newspaper archives on Old Fulton Post Cards.

Jeff

Quote from: jtc on January 31, 2013, 07:42:59 PM
Branson,
The older I get, the more I realize how little I know. The only thing I know for certain is that I have a lot to learn.
Jeff

I call that a happy attitude -- having more to learn, I think, keeps one young.  There's always new knowledge to gain.

I wrote to the Tool Exchange folks and tossed the question back to them of what's with the cruciform slot, and why does it only show up on the plain face hammers.  We'll see if they can give us any answers.

Quote from: rusty on January 30, 2013, 04:11:32 PM
>Ford factory in Gelong, Victoria that makes cars that don't look like any Fords I know
Ford in Au is one of the most convoluted, bizzare, complicated, weird company histories you will ever read ;P

Au had fairly protective tarriff's , just like the UK, so making things under licence would be much more attractive than importing them, as intended. Not surprising so many tools show up with notably familiar patterns.....

Wonder if Cyclone was making axe's etc also?

I really enjoy the history in this thread on Cheney hammers and what was behind it all -- amazing research from the OP I am impressed.

Also
Sorry don't mean to change from hammers to Fords but Victoria was mentioned and in the Mid (approx)  fifties the Ford Victoria was introduced by Ford. Was this model produced in Australia or was it just a cool name Ford attached to the model? Sorry again but really interested in the Ausralian relationship with ford. :)

edit: I did a little research and found that the first Victoria was made in the thirties so it is probably not associated with the comment I quoted SORRY for the diversion from the original intent of this thread.

Wasn't the Victoria one of the Fords made in Canada?

Quote from: Branson on February 03, 2013, 09:12:16 AM
Wasn't the Victoria one of the Fords made in Canada?

I'm not sure. The discussion about the Australian hammer factory just triggered a memory of the Victoria. But I should have asked in  a new thread  sorry --- This thread on the Cheney Hammers is very interesting