I was reading this morning in a homestead book about the making of lumber.  A early method described, but not demonstrated, was called "pit sawing", where one man above the log would saw whilst another man in the pit guided the saw and sent it back.  Is this an example of the type of saw used in this method, and if not is there anyone that might know what that saw would have looked like?

See if your library has some of Eric Sloane's books on early American industry.  I believe he's got drawings of pit saws.  My recollection of his drawings, which is worth about as much as a 1 cent stamp, is that there were tiller handles - designed for use with two hands - top and bottom, with the bottom handle held on with a wedge, so it could be removed quickly when the saw had to be pulled from the kerf.

Oh, look!  Here's an online image that, I believe, is one of his drawings:


What you've got looks more like a one-person timber saw adapted with a handle on the far end to make it a two-person saw, possibly used for felling or bucking small trees; but I am no kinda expert on this.

What is the length of the one in your picture ? It looks more like a bucking saw to me. I think the pit saws were long ones, like about a minimum of 8 feet. The majority of the pictures I've seen show the handles as a T shape similar to or the same as the sketches that Bill posted.

Thank you, both!  That helps point me in a direction.  Rather than "man on top" and "man in pit" I can reference them properly as Tiller Man (or Top Man) and Box Man (or Pit Man).  I'm also learning this morning they had rip blades, and that they were also called a "Whip Saw".

Anybody here ever pit sawn lumber?

Quote from: gibsontool on December 10, 2014, 11:37:56 PM
What is the length of the one in your picture ?

It is a picture I robbed from the Internet, and the length was not noted.

Pit saws come in three forms.  In addition to the frame and open pit saws shown in Sloane, there is also a version more or less like a really big turning saw.  I've seen photos of this third form in use in Egypt and in East Asia.

American made open pit saws (the whip saw) were coming into California as early as the 1840s.  These are more convenient to use, as the "box" is easily removable, making it less of a problem to start the next cut.   I believe it is Sloane who shows a close up of the box arrangement, the box being held in place with a wedge.

It was kinda confusing, the term whip saw, because some of the two man cross cuts, the ones with really narrow blades, were also called whip saws.

The saw in your picture is a cross cut for use by one or two men.  The handle on the end is not what that saw came with, but came off one of the two man cross cuts.  The proper handle stands at 90 degrees to the back of the blade, and can be placed at the end to allow two men to operate it, or placed just in front of the tote for more control if only one man is using it.  You'll notice a hole just in front of the tote of the one in your picture.

Thank you, Branson.  I was hopeful you'd chime in.  The references to Sloan; are they to "A Museum of Early American Tools"?

in the pit saw operation, the senior man will be on top and the boy or hired hand will be
in the pit.  you will notice wide brim hats being worn, the person in the pit gets covered
with the saw dust. yes, it is a dirty job, but someone had to do it.

I don't know if you guys in the US use the term "under dog"

That came from the guy working in the pit, he was the under dog.

Quote from: turnnut on December 11, 2014, 06:28:45 PM
in the pit saw operation, the senior man will be on top and the boy or hired hand will be
in the pit.  you will notice wide brim hats being worn, the person in the pit gets covered
with the saw dust. yes, it is a dirty job, but someone had to do it.

Hence the phrase "it's the pits"

Mike

Quote from: OilyRascal on December 11, 2014, 04:34:24 PM
Thank you, Branson.  I was hopeful you'd chime in.  The references to Sloan; are they to "A Museum of Early American Tools"?

Yes, A Museum of Early American Tools, the book that was my downfall into tool accumulation.  Others are probably in his other books. too.  Some day I'll have all his books.

Your saw is a long two man cross cut.

Pit saws fall into two main types, the English blade which is triangular in form, with rip teeth pointing to the narrow end. The top handle (tiller) is a cranked iron or steel bar, with a wooden tee handle - the top handle (box) is usually all wood, held on with wooden wedge, so that it can be easily removed.

The Continental pattern is a frame saw with a thin and narrow (whip) blade held in tension by the frame.

The saw pit was common in England (and its colonies) and Colonial America - on the continent of Europerit is usually carried out above ground, on trestles.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw_pit

There are two excellent books by French author Annie Arnault: La grande histoire des scieurs de long - Tome 1 et 2...

Sadly I never bought them at the time they came out...

see also: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scieur_de_long

See also: https://www.bodgers.org.uk/bb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1126&start=15

The two saws on the left of the image below are pit saws that have been resharpened as cross cut saws, and single handles fitted. Old pit saws were also often reused as stone saws, for soft stone such a limestone (Bath or Portland stone)..

I bought a new one about 20 years ago and they were still listed in Flinn-Garlick catalogue in Sheffield until very recently (they may still make them to order) see: http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/

What is interesting is the drawing showing a big Tee handle off the end of the blade, I have an ice saw that looks like that, be the same thing, top man only though!

JOHN K,   I believe that if you look at your ice saw,  the tee-handle is off-set towards the user,
when cutting ice blocks, you do not want to be standing too close to the block that you are cutting.
(you could go for a cold swim)