Author Topic: Hand Planes  (Read 324610 times)

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Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #435 on: October 02, 2014, 11:06:00 AM »
Hi Branson,

Thanks for stopping by!  There's no limit on #5 jack planes that I'm aware of.  I wouldn't say there's an infinite supply of antique #5s out there in the wild, but good user quality planes are plentiful to say the least, and can be found almost any where old tools are available.  Thanks for supporting my point.  With so many available at generally affordable prices, having a couple (or more) that are dedicated to specific tasks isn't too unreasonable.  The issue is space/storage.  That's the only thing that really keeps my collection of user planes from getting out of control.  I just don't have the space for them.  Anyway... So Branson, how do you use your four #5 jacks?  Are they dedicated to specific tasks?  Do you have a favorite?  Pictures are always welcome if possible.

Jim C.   
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Offline Art Rafael

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #436 on: October 02, 2014, 05:58:17 PM »
Jim, and others, I do appreciate the detailed pictures of classic planes parts - little did I know.  They  are most helpful in designing my miniatures,
and I appreciate the detailed information even if I never build another miniature.

Ralph

Offline Branson

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #437 on: October 02, 2014, 08:47:35 PM »
Hi Branson,

Thanks for stopping by!  There's no limit on #5 jack planes that I'm aware of.  I wouldn't say there's an infinite supply of antique #5s out there in the wild, but good user quality planes are plentiful to say the least, and can be found almost any where old tools are available.  Thanks for supporting my point.  With so many available at generally affordable prices, having a couple (or more) that are dedicated to specific tasks isn't too unreasonable.  The issue is space/storage.  That's the only thing that really keeps my collection of user planes from getting out of control.  I just don't have the space for them.  Anyway... So Branson, how do you use your four #5 jacks?  Are they dedicated to specific tasks?  Do you have a favorite?  Pictures are always welcome if possible.
Jim C.

I'm relieved to know there no limit on #5s.  What I've reached for most often over the years is my veteran 5 1/2 C.  But I'm really beginning to like the Type 6 I just bought.  It just seems to handle well.  I've been making handles for things with it -- getting some octagon handles for some of my tanged chisels and making some "roughly made" handles for the Russian style inshave, scorp, drawknife, and flincher for Sutter's Fort.  For a lot of other things I go for one of the two #4s, and recently I've put some time in with an Ohio #3 C clone.   I have a #7 and #7 C, but haven't used them much at all. 

In wooden planes I definitely have a favorite -- a solid rosewood razee jack with an L&!.J. White blade.  Both gorgeous and a cutting fiend. 

I have other  metal planes as well.  There's a Baker with all it's finish intact and the paper label still good.  Had to have a Baker for the CA history of the company.  Bought it and the Ohio for $15 together.  I have another jack and smoother that my wife found and pointed out to me at a second hand shop (two different occasions).  I bought them, $5 each I think, largely because I was so touched that she found them and pointed them out.  One day, before I got my Stanleys out of  storage, I really had to plane something, so I spent a little time on a stone with the smoother and was thankful to have it.

I have a number of block planes, various makers, packed in different go-to tool boxes.  I do have favorites among the blocks.  The Stiletto is heavier than any Stanley, and it's out on the shelf in the shop, along with that corrugated one I got not long ago, and one of the Stanley low angles.  The Stiletto is vying for favorite with a recent made English Stanley that works really well.

There's another tool box about to come out of storage.  I' be pulling out a #3 Stanley and one of the adjustable curve Stanleys.  Can't remember what else I put into the box ten years back.  It's an army tool box I picked up at an antique store -- couldn't pass it up because it was made in North Carolina by Millikins, to whom I'm related.  Guess it just about qualifies as a family heirloom.

Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #438 on: October 03, 2014, 05:16:57 PM »
^^^^^^

Branson,

Any time you'd like to feature those planes here in the Hand Planes thread, that would be great!!  I suspect that you have a nice collection stashed away somewhere.  I'm always interested and excited when I see that someone posted in the thread.  You never know what's going to show up.  I know there's a lot of great old planes in the hands of people who have been following along, so let's see them!

Jim C.   
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Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #439 on: October 03, 2014, 05:37:03 PM »
Are any of you members of the Mid-West Tool Collector's Association (MWTCA)?  If you like antique hand tools then that's the place for you.  The membership holds local tool meets all over the country, and the organization publishes a magazine called the Gristmill, where old tools and tool related information is the topic.  You won't meet a nicer group of people, and there's a ton of "old tool knowledge" to tap into.  Each year, the MWTCA holds a Spring and Fall National Meet.  The Fall meet is going on now, October 1 - 4, 2014 in Rockford, Illinois.  I try to make at least one National Meet every year, and this year I got to Rockford.  I usually go not looking for anything in particular, and sometimes I come home empty handed.  Not this time......

Today I finally pulled the trigger on a VERY nice Stanley #602 Bedrock...... I'll give you more details on this one in the future.

Jim C.   
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Offline mikeswrenches

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #440 on: October 03, 2014, 05:59:14 PM »
I went to the Mid-West meet in Raleigh about 2 weeks ago.  My first time at that one since it was 666 miles from where I am in Florida.  As you pointed out, a really nice bunch of guys.

Seeing your exceptional 602 reminded me that a member there had around 25-30 no.2's of various types...even a flat top 602C, which you don't see many of.

I haven't made any of the nationals.  Maybe next year.

Like Jim, I would urge all of our forum members to join.  I think it's a bargain at $25.00.

Mike
Check out my ETSY store at: OldeTymeTools

Offline turnnut

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #441 on: October 03, 2014, 08:19:53 PM »
even if you can not make the meetings, the magazines are worth the price of membership.

I agree, skip eating out just one time and put the money towards your membership fee.

Frank

Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #442 on: October 03, 2014, 10:14:03 PM »
Jim, and others, I do appreciate the detailed pictures of classic planes parts - little did I know.  They  are most helpful in designing my miniatures,
and I appreciate the detailed information even if I never build another miniature.

Ralph

Hey Ralph,

I'm glad you're enjoying the thread.  I still need to improve on the pictures.  Sometimes they're okay and other times they're not.  They're never great.  The thread would be more informative and potentially more interesting if I could take better, more detailed pictures.  I'll keep working on it. 

Jim C.   
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Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #443 on: October 03, 2014, 10:59:33 PM »
I went to the Mid-West meet in Raleigh about 2 weeks ago.  My first time at that one since it was 666 miles from where I am in Florida.  As you pointed out, a really nice bunch of guys.

Seeing your exceptional 602 reminded me that a member there had around 25-30 no.2's of various types...even a flat top 602C, which you don't see many of.

I haven't made any of the nationals.  Maybe next year.

Like Jim, I would urge all of our forum members to join.  I think it's a bargain at $25.00.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I can only imagine what 25-30 #2s looked like all together in one place.  As you well know, #2 size bench planes, Stanley or otherwise, are definitely collectible.  I did see a #602C today, but the asking price far exceeded its true condition.  I held it in my hands but it was a "user" quality example at best.  It's an extremely rare plane in any condition.  It's also easy to overlook a rare tool's condition when it's right there in your hands.  Logic and discipline can go right out the window.  Over the years, and after overpaying more than once, I've gotten much better at controlling my excitement in the presence of rare tools, and then accurately evaluating their condition.  Sometimes it's hard to walk away, but the condition and the price have to be in sync.

Jim C.
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Offline Branson

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #444 on: October 06, 2014, 09:41:01 AM »
Oh boy, I'm in trouble now!  I'm going to have to see if my camera skills and my camera are up to the task, because photos are gonna have to happen.
Ten and a half years ago, when "domestic bliss" vanished from my then household, I was in a fire to get all my stuff out, and finally was throwing everything into any box I could find.  Almost all went into a 12 X 12 storage unit, packed to the ceiling.  Well, my wife told me I ought to get a second unit so I could move things around and organize it all.  Friday I got the second unit and started shifting things and looking for tools that were in there "somewhere."

Folks, a while back I said I had two #45s.  I was mistaken.  I have three.  I opened the box I had for one of them and found two 45's.  Odd, I thought, since the Sears 45 has its own leatherette case...  One was the Wards 45.  The other in the box, though, is a Stanley sweet heart.  With the exception of the Stanley mark, and the Stanley sweat heart logo on the back of the skate, they are absolutely identical, down to the "Trade 45 Mark" cast into the fence, and the 45 in the casting for the right hand side of the body.  I'm certain I'll find the same thing on the Sears 45 whenever I dig it up. 

In a cardboard box along with the planes are a dozen blades, rabbet blades and beading blades, plus a single reeding blade and an obscure molding blade.  Most I'm pretty sure came with the Stanley.  Also in the cardboard box were four or five blades for my 71 1/2, including two 1/4 inch blades.   Two pin vises, one a really tiny Starrett.

There was another box that I remembered tossing a bunch of wooden planes.  What I forgot was that two of them are marked Odnance Dept 1863.  Also forgotten were two small sets of Japanese finger planes, a set of small carriage maker type planes (4 inches long) hand made and some still in progress.  Three Viet-Namese planes showed up -- rabbet, hollowing, and high angle smoother -- and a plane stocked scraper to make a 1/4 inch bead.

Another box I can't get at yet I know holds a Stanley #3, a Stanley #10, and one of the Stanley adjustable curve planes.  It might be where I stuffed my Stanley 40 1/2.   And Batz, there's a torch in that box as well.  Underneath this chest is an old carpenter's tool chest that holds a bunch of various wrenches.

I have a busy week ahead.  Tomorrow checking out lumber for the cooper's shop, then dealing with the air conditioning fellow to replace the primary condensation tube.  Also seeing a potential customer about doing unspecified finish carpentry on a Craftsman style house.  So it will be a while before I can do a lot with my new finds.

Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #445 on: October 06, 2014, 08:26:33 PM »
^^^^^

Branson,

You're right, you're in trouble.  You've been totally sand bagging us.  You DO have a nice collection of planes.   I knew it!  Get that camera out and start taking some pictures.  Let's see and hear more about what you've got!

Jim C. 
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Offline Branson

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #446 on: October 07, 2014, 09:54:08 AM »
Well, somewhere in the unit should be a #66 beader, which is really a sort of scratch stock.  It needs some blades, but has both the straight and curved fences.  There ought to be also one of the cigar spokeshaves and a particularly beautiful Viet-Namese spoke shave.  Bunch of bow saws and a lot of axes and hatchets live in another chest.  There's one chest full of the planes I used to use at Sutter's Fort, including a really nice plow plane and a wide range of rabbet and dado planes.  Probably more surprises.  I have no idea how many wrenches are in the chest that belonged to "First Class Carpenter" nor what kinds of wrenches they are.

One set of photos ought to be just on scratch stocks.  Except for the #66 they are shop made, including one I threw together to duplicate a couple of molding details.  All are different.

Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #447 on: October 07, 2014, 08:48:57 PM »
Well, somewhere in the unit should be a #66 beader, which is really a sort of scratch stock.  It needs some blades, but has both the straight and curved fences.  There ought to be also one of the cigar spokeshaves and a particularly beautiful Viet-Namese spoke shave.  Bunch of bow saws and a lot of axes and hatchets live in another chest.  There's one chest full of the planes I used to use at Sutter's Fort, including a really nice plow plane and a wide range of rabbet and dado planes.  Probably more surprises.  I have no idea how many wrenches are in the chest that belonged to "First Class Carpenter" nor what kinds of wrenches they are.

One set of photos ought to be just on scratch stocks.  Except for the #66 they are shop made, including one I threw together to duplicate a couple of molding details.  All are different.

Branson,

You clearly have a lot of great planes and experience to add to the thread.  I hope you'll feature one soon!  No more sand bagging.  Get your camera out and let's see what you have. 

Jim C.
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Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #448 on: October 12, 2014, 09:32:40 AM »
In the first half of the twentieth century, several manufacturers were competing with Stanley to make mass produced hand planes, and other hand tools.  Some companies did cut into Stanley’s share of the market, and often did so by copying many of Stanley’s designs and ideas.  Some tried to “make a better mousetrap” by adding special features and gimmicks.  Most of the time, those unique features didn’t really enhance the plane’s overall performance, and occasionally, they detracted from it.  There were other times when various Stanley competitors came up with entirely different “non Stanley” ideas and designs that really worked.  Two such planes that I previously featured are perfect examples; the Sargent #507 block plane (see page 11, reply 162) and the Rumbold butt mortise plane (see page 17, reply 254).

In my opinion, more often than not, these new ideas and designs fell into the “better mousetrap” category.  As one of Stanley’s top competitors, Sargent manufactured a few planes that looked very different and unique, when compared to their Stanley equivalents.  Take for example their #1500 series rabbet planes, commonly referred to as “lady bugs” due to their insect like appearance. They sort of remind me of a snail too…. Anyway, those planes don’t look like anything else out there and when compared to the results produced by Stanley #90 series rabbet planes, there’s not much difference.  What makes the “lady bugs” so special is their shape, and that makes them VERY collectable.  Depending on the model and its condition, those little planes can easily sell for a few thousand dollars apiece!!

Sargent also made a relatively unique looking series of bench planes called “Autosets.”  Several different sizes were generally manufactured between 1916 and 1943.  I say generally because a few sizes were manufactured for much shorter periods of time within the 1916 – 1943 span, making them rare, collectible and expensive.  The Autoset plane model numbers were designated with a 700 series, that like many Sargent planes, was followed by their size in inches.  They were also available with corrugated soles and as such were referred to with a “C” after their model number.   For example, an 8” long Autoset would be model #708, while an 8” long Autoset with a corrugated sole would be model #708C.  When I think about Autoset planes, what really catches my eye is the distinctive shape of their main body castings, which adds nothing to their function, and their one of a kind pressure cap and frog configuration, which may or may not be an added benefit and could be seen as falling into the “better mousetrap” category.  I guess the individual craftsperson will ultimately have to make the final decision on that score.

The unique pressure cap and frog design are what give this plane its name… Autoset.  The theory was that once the plane was setup for a particular cut (light, heavy, etc), its pressure cap and cutting iron could be removed from the plane and then re-installed to make the same cut without having to re-adjust the frog, the iron or the depth of cut.  The fact of the matter is that after using any tool with a cutting edge, like a hand plane, that edge is going to get dull and require honing.  The Autosets allowed the user to remove the iron, hone it, and then re-install it back on the frog while still producing the same cut, but without having to fiddle around with the adjustments to achieve it.   

The design employs a fixed frog that’s attached with screws to two stout screw bosses that are cast into the main body of the plane.  Down near the throat, the bottom edge of the frog rests on a lip that’s cast into the plane’s main body.  This configuration provides a stable platform for the cutting iron, thus reducing chatter and potential iron flex.  On more traditional bench planes, the double iron (cutting iron and chip breaker) configuration usually requires that the chip breaker be removed in order to hone the cutting iron.  A traditional chip breaker has that little horizontal slot that orients itself on the yoke attached to the top of the frog, so it must be fitted to the cutting iron in exactly the same place in an effort to avoid having to re-adjust the frog, the depth of cut, etc.  No matter how hard I've tried to install the chip breaker back on the cutting iron in exactly the same place, I'm usually off just a little, causing me to have to re-adjust the depth of cut, the frog, etc. to get the same cut I had prior to removing the double iron assembly.  Autoset planes use a single short iron that sits directly on the frog, which has a small pin protruding up to engage a small slot on the cutting iron itself (not a chip breaker that has to be perfectly re-oriented on the cutting iron).

Finally the pressure cap is designed to act as a chip breaker that can be moved closer or further from the cutting edge depending on the desired cut.  Once it's positioned, the pressure cap too is "autoset" and does not need to be adjusted if removed from the plane.  If one looks closely at the photos below, he/she will see that the pressure cap incorporates a "T" shaped catch that's held in place by a nicely engineered capitve nut at the top of the lever cap itself.  Notice how the "T" has catches on it that lock onto the pressure bar that runs from side to side across the plane's main body.  Even when the pressure cap is removed, that "T" mechanism remains fixed because of that captive nut.  When the pressure cap is re-installed on the plane, the catches on the "T" re-engage the pressure bar at exactly the same distance from the edge of the cutting iron as it was prior to removing it.

In terms of doing what they were designed to do, the Autoset planes deliver.  Their unique components do allow the user to remove the iron, hone it, and then re-install it onto the plane without having to make any significant adjustments thereafter.  I like that.  Do the Autoset planes produce superior results when compared to the results produced by a well-tuned traditional looking/functioning bench plane?  Probably not, but again, that decision is up to the evaluation of each individual.  In the end, the Autoset "better mousetrap" idea probably didn't cut wood (or catch mice) any better than the more traditional looking bench planes that we're all so familiar with.  As for creating a bench plane that required little if any adjustment after disassembly and reassembly, well, I think Sargent got it right. 

Hopefully I didn’t bore you or confuse you too much with this feature.  I spent a lot of time talking about frogs, chip breakers, irons and pressure caps.  The best way to really see what I’m talking about is to compare any common bench plane you may have to an Autoset.  Get an Autoset out in the shop, play around with it a little, and I think you’ll see what I’m talking about.  With that being said, I have to admit that the Autosets are my ALL TIME FAVORITE bench planes to collect.  I have a couple that I use too.  I absolutely love the theory behind them, the engineering and machining that went into making them, their distinctive styling, and the functional “contraptionism” of their pressure cap and frog design.  What a great looking tool!  It’s fair to say that I’m a hardcore Stanley hand plane enthusiast, but when it comes to Sargent Autosets…… well you get the point.

Sargent #708:

The plane depicted below was probably manufactured between 1925 and 1943.  It’s approximately 8” long, or about the size of a #3 bench plane.  Sargent manufactured a 707, 708, 710, 711, 714, 718 and a 722.  All were also available with corrugated soles.  Most Autoset planes are relatively collectible.  They’re available, as I still see them at tool shows and online, however, condition and completeness are everything, even when considering a user quality plane.  The parts on these planes are relatively unique to Autoset planes only.  Buying one with missing and/or broken parts could turn into hassle.  Parts can be expensive and difficult to track down.  Be picky regardless if you’re going to buy one to use or for your collection.  Thanks for hanging in there on this one.

Jim C. (who likes to ramble)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 12:02:39 PM by Jim C. »
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Offline Jim C.

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Re: Hand Planes
« Reply #449 on: October 13, 2014, 09:31:16 AM »
^^^^^^After I write this stuff, I like to go back the following day to clarify things, cleanup typos, etc.  Often times, I cut things out that sounded better the day before, or re-word them so they make more sense (I hope).  Today I went back and reviewed yesterday's Sargent Autoset feature.  When I was done reading it, I felt like I really just skimmed over the uniqueness of the Autoset's pressure cap design.  As a result, I added more content to the writeup, particularly as it relates to the pressure cap.  Yes, it's actually longer now!  My sincerest apologies.  Really.  I totally missed the mark on being concise and to the point on this one.  Thanks again for hanging in there.

Jim C.   
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